hardcore302

I usually use Mobil 1, but I've heard some bad things. The following oils are whats readily available in NYC... what do you think?

Nuke

I think this has been done a million times and always ends up being an argument of sorts. So much on what oil you use is based on how you drive your car and how often you desire to change your oil and filter. Where are some of the other blends? And what about dino? There's no reason you can't use dino if you're driving easy and insist on changing your oil every 3,000 miles or less.

Besides, you left one of the "best" (someone shoot me for using that 4-letter word) oils off the poll: Amsoil. You can order it online and it'll be at your door in 2-3 days.

NaplesFL11GT

I was looking for Amsoil too but wasnt on the poll.

Goldenpony

AMSOIL

BruceH

You will be fine with any of the oils on your poll. Just make sure they are API certified.

http://eolcs.api.org/DisplayInfo.asp?Info=BrandNames

howarmat

none of the above

RogerDodger1

The oil I use isn't in the poll for some reason; Amsoil. I use it because it's the best available and saves me a lot of money.

If I didn't use Amsoil, I'd use Mobil 1, as in my professional opinion it is the next best oil on the market, although more costly to use compared to Amsoil. The other oil's you've listed, in my opinion based on the tech data found on their product data sheets, they are merely Group III, "synthetic oils", which is merely a petroleum oil that has been subjected to a higher degree of refining. I don't think that's a very good deal. For years Amsoil and Mobil 1 have both used what is in my opinion the vastly superior Group IV P.A.O. synthetic oil base stock, which I feel are superior to the so-called, "synthetic", Group III oils. It is my understanding that in Europe, it is illegal for an oil company to call a petroleum oil subjected to a higher degree of refining, (Group III oils), a, "synthetic oil". I guess in the U.S.A. it's, "okay", to deceive the consumer. Buyer beware.

BruceH

Roger,
I recall reading once that you are involved in oil analysis somehow and are quite knowledgeble about motor oils. I have read that most pao synthetics are blended from exxonmobil basestocks because they are about the only petroleum company that has the capabiltiy to manufacture group 4 base stock. I can find mobil's website describing their base stocks but for the life of me I can't find any company revealing where they get their base stocks from. Any input on that?
I agree about it should be illegal to market a 3 as synthetic. IIRC that came as a result of mobil sueing castrol because castrol was marketing syntec as synthetic when in reality it is a "super refined" dino oil.

RogerDodger1

Good questions.

I know from my readings that Exxon/Mobil has their own chemicals division and as one of the worlds largest oil companies, I would think they outsource for raw materials on a very limited basis, if at all. There's been a lot of Internet old wives tails being tossed around, (particularly on that so-called oil web site that I don't find a very good resource and so I wont even mention their name, but for anyone who knows, I am sure you know what I am referring to), that Mobil 1 is no longer a P.A.O. based synthetic motor oil. I personally think that accusation is without merit and is false. Sometime last year there was a large hurricane that struck the Gulf of Mexico, hit an Exxon/Mobil chemicals plant and did some major damage to the facility. This particular plant manufactures the P.A.O. synthetic base stocks that Exxon/Mobil uses in Mobil 1. After this hurricane damage, the facility was closed for repairs, Mobil 1 immediately went on a nationwide back order and motorists were having a difficult time getting their hands on Mobil 1. I think many here will remember this with signs being posted in auto parts stores announcing the back order situation. Well, it stands to reason that if Mobil 1 were not a Group IV P.A.O. based motor oil and their facility that manufactures the P.A.O. synthetic base stocks is closed down, then why would Mobil 1 go on back order? Common sense does apply.

Moving on, Amsoil also has has been formulated from the superior performing Group IV P.A.O. synthetic base stocks and is one reason why this oil outperforms other oils, but when that hurricane hit the Gulf, supplies of Amsoil didn't go on nationwide back order, as they had with Mobil 1. So I think we have to logically conclude that Exxon/Mobil isn't the only supplier of P.A.O. synthetic base stocks.

There is a company in Michigan that supplies many oil companies with the chemicals that are used to manufacture the final product, named Lubrizol Inc., http://www.lubrizol.com, and I know from my readings that Lubrizol is one of the suppliers for Amsoil Inc. So I am venturing a guess here that they also manufacture P.A.O. synthetic base stocks, or at least supply it from another company.

In my readings, I have learned that the superior performing P.A.O. synthetic base stocks can be derived from many sources; coal, shale, crude oil, wheat, grains and natural gas. It is my understanding that Amsoil Inc. gets their P.A.O. base stocks from passing natural gas over an industrial catalyctic convertor, (I don't pretend to understand how the process works, I'm not a chemist).

As for companies revealing where they obtain their raw materials from, I can understand why they'd be rather secretive about that, as it would be divulging information their competitors could use to their advantage. Similar to an NFL football team getting their hands on their opponents play book.

These oil companies that are manufacturing what I feel are the lower performing Group III, "synthetic oils", are in my opinion deceiving American consumers. I'm somewhat of a consumer advocate and in my own company I pride myself on customer service and for the Big Oil industry to slap the label, "synthetic oil", on a bottle of petroleum oil that merely has been refined to a higher degree, (a Group III oil), I personally think is very deceptive, abusive, dishonest and unethical. I think it should be illegal to do this, as it is my understanding it is in Europe. Now whenever I call these Big Oil companies to discuss this issue, their latest tact has been to make claims that their Group III, "synthetic oil", is actually superior to the Group IV P.A.O. synthetic oils, but just costs less to manufacture. Hmm...so here they admit that their cost for manufacturing these oils is lower than it would be to manufacture a Group IV P.A.O. oil, but they are charging the consumer the same amount for this Group III, "synthetic oil", as they would for a Group IV P.A.O. based oil. Greed? I personally think so. When you want to know the truth, follow the money. If a product has a lower price, there is a reason for that. We do get what we pay for. There's no free lunch.

Years back, I read an absolutely superb article on synthetic oils by a fellow named Kurt Scott, "Synthetic Oils: Rx for Long Engine Life". The article is the best, most in-depth and thorough article I have ever read on this topic, (and I have read extensively on this). I hope Mr.Scott will consider writing an update to the article to discuss these, Group III, "synthetic oils". He would be doing a great service to consumers. The Big Oil industry should have their feet held to the fire on this issue, so consumers can get correct information about what exactly they are putting in their expensive engines to protect them, or not. Consumers seeking out a synthetic oil typically want to take premium care of their vehicles and I don't think they should be told that the oil they are purchasing is a, "synthetic oil", leading that consumer to believe that this oil offers all the performance benefits that historically a true Group IV P.A.O. based synthetic oil offers, when in fact it's merely a petroleum crude oil pumped from the ground, just subjected to more refining. I have even considered writing my Congressman about this. Something needs to be done. I think consumers are being hoodwinked.

There is only one authorized web site on the Internet that has Kurt Scott's article, "Synthetic Oils: Rx for Long Engine Life", and it is below -

http://www.getahelmet.com/jeeps/tech/syntheticoil/

From this article, we learn that Group IV P.A.O. synthetic base stock oils have the following performance benefits to petroleum based crude oils -

1. Vastly superior film strength for reduced engine wear.

2. Superior cold temperature performance, for easier cold engine starts and reduced engine wear.

3. Superior high temperature engine protection.

4. Reduced friction/superior lubricity, improved fuel economy, reduced emissions, more power.

5. Reduced sludge build up/an internally cleaner engine.

6. Reduced engine operating temperatures, longer engine life.

7. Lower oil consumption from increased resistance to burning/vaporization.

8. Natural detergent characteristics, keeping engines cleaner.

9. The capability for extended drains, if the oil is formulated for it, (that if is key, as most synthetic oils currently on the market are not formulated for safe extended drain intervals!).

10. Reduced dependence on foreign oil. A 55 gallon drum of crude oil typically nets 3.5 quarts of refined petroleum motor oil. That's it. As mentioned earlier, Group IV P.A.O. based synthetic oils are manufactured from an entirely different process than the lower cost Group III, "synthetic oils".

Now, I'm no chemist, or tribologist, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribology basically a chemist who specializes in motor oils), but it seems logical to conclude that we can refine a petroleum oil from here to Kingdom come, (Group III, "synthetic oils"), but how could that increase it's film strength, which is one of the inherent key advantages a Group IV P.A.O. based synthetic motor oil offers. It also wont change a petroleum oil's laminar flow pattern to a Group IV P.A.O. based synthetic oils superior turbulent flow pattern, which helps to reduce engine operating temperatures. Fluid Dynamics, Laminar vs Turbulent Flow - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluid_dynamics

Curt Scott's article states that the typical petroleum based crude oils have a film strength of about 500 psi, while Amsoil synthetic motor oils can have film strengths over 3,000 psi. Film strength is how much force it takes to force out a film of oil from between two pieces of metal and allow metal-to-metal wear. It's taking candy from a baby when we compare all the documented performance benefits that a true synthetic oil offers vs petroleum based crude oils. It's just not even close. So I really have to chuckle when I read comments such as, "All motor oils are the same, just change the oil often and you'll be fine", or, "There's no difference between oils of the same viscosity, as they all protect the same". These statements are categorically, undeniably false and it pains me to read of these self-annointed Internet oil, "experts", providing this very poor advice to people looking to take the best care of their expensive vehicles as possible, like the very Mustang owners in this forum!

If a motorist changes their vehicle's engine over to a top quality synthetic oil, will their wheels suddenly become shinier, the stereo sound better, the engine gain 50 horsepower with a 28 mpg increase, etc? No, of course not and most people wouldn't notice a difference unless they were really paying attention. But if they want all the documented performance and protection issues that are discussed in the above referenced article, then a leading synthetic oil is without question the hands down way to go.

This post got longer than I had originally intended, but you asked a good question that deserved a complete answer and one topic flows right into the next. As I find time, I'll write my own article to post here, as long as the forum doesn't try to claim it as their own, as many do. If that's the case, I wont write the article.

I hope this has been of help.

SCCAGT

Hard to come up with a response with the previous two post above mine. Pretty much lays it all out. So I'll add it to the poll myself again.

AMSOIL!!!