Go Back   MustangForums.com > Ford Mustang Tech > 2005 - 2014 Mustangs
Sign in using an external account
Register Forgot Password?
Search


2005 - 2014 Mustangs Discussions on the latest S197 model Mustangs from Ford.
Sponsored by Latemodel Restoration


Welcome to Mustang Forums!
Welcome to Mustang Forums.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, at no cost, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!


Reply
 
 
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 09-18-2011, 01:50 PM   #11
pascal
S197 Section Modder-ator
 
pascal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Vehicle: 06
Location: Orlando FL
Posts: 13,159
Default

There is STILL no replacement for displacement guys, come on!
It's pure physics.

Don't compare modern smaller engines to the old bigger ones because you have a technology leap there.

Take the new 5.0 engine technology, bump this thing up to 7 liters and you come back and tell me the new found displacement isn't say... worthy of performance?? LOL.
Technology allows you to squeeze more productivity out of a small engine compared to an older bigger one.
The real argument is in power delivery and how much of it do you need on a street car.

Despite all that, Top fuel and weight pulling isn't achieved with coffee grinders.
This ad is not displayed to registered or logged-in members.
Register your free account today and become a member on Mustang Forums!
__________________
pascal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2011, 02:01 PM   #12
OhEightGT
2nd Gear Member
 
OhEightGT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Vehicle: 2008 Ford Mustang GT
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 243
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pascal View Post
There is STILL no replacement for displacement guys, come on!
It's pure physics.

Don't compare modern smaller engines to the old bigger ones because you have a technology leap there.

Take the new 5.0 engine technology, bump this thing up to 7 liters and you come back and tell me the new found displacement isn't say... worthy of performance?? LOL.
Technology allows you to squeeze more productivity out of a small engine compared to an older bigger one.
The real argument is in power delivery and how much of it do you need on a street car.

Despite all that, Top fuel and weight pulling isn't achieved with coffee grinders.
True, I guess what we are trying to say is for any gains one might achieve with an old school motor in a street driven s197, for street use at least, it just isn't practical, right? He would be able to make the motor that comes with his Mustang far more powerful dollar for dollar and hour for hour than putting something like that into the car, and be able to keep it practical/streetable to boot.
OhEightGT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2011, 02:11 PM   #13
pascal
S197 Section Modder-ator
 
pascal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Vehicle: 06
Location: Orlando FL
Posts: 13,159
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by OhEightGT View Post
True, I guess what we are trying to say is for any gains one might achieve with an old school motor in a street driven s197, for street use at least, it just isn't practical, right? He would be able to make the motor that comes with his Mustang far more powerful dollar for dollar and hour for hour than putting something like that into the car, and be able to keep it practical/streetable to boot.
Everything is relative and that's why we have variances.
Today, you don't need 7 liters anymore to make an engine perform and that's due to technology.

The displacement thing is still irrefutable when it's called upon a certain application.
__________________
pascal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2011, 02:20 PM   #14
JIM5.0
5th Gear Member
 
JIM5.0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Vehicle: 2011 GT 5.0 Coyote
Location: Texas
Posts: 4,380
None, Facebook is the Devil! None, Twitter is for Twits! None, I hate it when my boss snoops the net about me
Default

That is why I brought up technology. I absolutely hate how big blocks are still dinosaurs with pushrods and no sort of variable anything, just a fixed inflexible single cam, poor and obsolete head designs, and no sort of important refinements that could make a 7L engine easily surpass 1000 BHP crank without any sort of forced induction.

The massive 8.2L (502ci) big blocks, I bet, can easily pump out 2000 BHP crank with direct injection, 5 valves per cylinder (3 intake and 2 exhaust), DOHC with independent cam phasing, variable length intake, and computer controls.
Sure, such an engine cannot rev very high, something just below but not much higher than 6K RPM because of their massively long strokes, but it is the massive torques throughout their entire RPM bandwidths, as small as its redline would be, that make them absolute monsters. This torque surpasses even turbocharged 7.4L power stroke diesels, and on gasoline at that too! The massive drawback of such massive gasoline big blocks is that they suck fuel like nobody's business. Even with all the technology I wish they had, such a beast might egt at most 10-12 MPG AVG.
__________________

Squirrel of Death!
Do not **** off the SoD!!!!
JIM5.0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2011, 02:31 PM   #15
JIM5.0
5th Gear Member
 
JIM5.0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Vehicle: 2011 GT 5.0 Coyote
Location: Texas
Posts: 4,380
None, Facebook is the Devil! None, Twitter is for Twits! None, I hate it when my boss snoops the net about me
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by OhEightGT View Post
True, I guess what we are trying to say is for any gains one might achieve with an old school motor in a street driven s197, for street use at least, it just isn't practical, right? He would be able to make the motor that comes with his Mustang far more powerful dollar for dollar and hour for hour than putting something like that into the car, and be able to keep it practical/streetable to boot.
It actually depends. If you go to a salvage yard and find the right big block, mod it with the right bolt-ons, you could very cheaply make 600+ BHP crank.

Now, if you take the big block engine, and completely rebuild it with balanced steel forged crank, steel forged quality H-beam conrods, quality forged pistons, rebuild the heads with quality valves, springs, reseat the valve seats, port and polish them, and on top of that, add on quality bolt-ons, and go forced induction, you could very easily spend well above $15.
And then, you would have to rebuild the rest of your drive train to take that power: new tranny or a complete teardown and rebuild of your existing tranny (if it would even bolt on to the big block you got), proper drive shaft with U-joints capable of the massive amount of torque the engine will put on it, upgrading the rear gears, upgrading the axles.
The entire project would easily be 2 or 3 times the cost of the current total value of your car!
__________________

Squirrel of Death!
Do not **** off the SoD!!!!
JIM5.0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2011, 02:48 PM   #16
OhEightGT
2nd Gear Member
 
OhEightGT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Vehicle: 2008 Ford Mustang GT
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 243
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JIM5.0 View Post
The entire project would easily be 2 or 3 times the cost of the current total value of your car!
That's what I was getting at more than anything, and trying to figure out. Even if you somehow got hold of a cheap already built engine making that kind of power, you're going to have to do a ridiculous amount of work on the rest of the car to even make it "halfway" work like it should. Even if you got the big motor for FREE you'd be into more money just getting it to work with the car than just getting the factory motor to that level of power in the first place. Just doesn't seem worth it, I mean, like was said, that's all relative, it just seems that for day to day street use on this car, in this application, not the daydream/racetrack kind of stuff, it's more practical, cheaper, and just all around better to get that power from the current design. Unless you're looking for that type of 1,000+ HP monster of course, and not something to use on the street.

Should have been more careful with the wording I guess. It would be stupid to say that a 4.6 or 5.4 could get the 2,000+ HP numbers of a big block. Just meant that for a street Mustang it seems a bit... odd in a way, to want to go the route that will cost multiple times more money, to get the same power you could get for a fraction of the cost with what the car already has and is capable of. (to a degree, I mean if huge numbers in the thousand horsepower or more range are the goal, the opposite would be true and it would be silly to attempt it with the factory equipment.)

Anyway, would love to see an s197 done up that way!
OhEightGT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2011, 01:11 AM   #17
8178A
3rd Gear Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location:
Posts: 724
Default

How big do you wan to go http://www.jonkaaseracingengines.com...e-mustang.html
__________________
This is my 2009 Mustang GT Premium, there are many like it, but this one is mine!

Brilliant Silver/Black, 5 speed manual, 3:55 gears, 18" wheels, Microsoft Sync and 93 octane tune configuration from Brenspeed. All original chalk car. Past Mustang owned, Black 07 GT Premiun, 5 speed manual.

Patiently waiting for Ford to design my next Mustang! Let’s get with it Ford!


8178A is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2011, 01:35 AM   #18
JIM5.0
5th Gear Member
 
JIM5.0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Vehicle: 2011 GT 5.0 Coyote
Location: Texas
Posts: 4,380
None, Facebook is the Devil! None, Twitter is for Twits! None, I hate it when my boss snoops the net about me
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 8178A View Post
Now that is a monster engine, 9.6L!
I am also utterly amazed: 6800 RPM with a 4.375in stroke? Those Diamond pistons, Ackerly & Childs rings must be ceramic coated and/or have been made of some exotic materials to withstand the massive linear speeds from such a massively long stroke.

I am surprised this monster is not pumping out over 1000 BHP crank and 1000 ft-lbf crank as it is. Maybe just some tweaks here and there and the additional 100 BHP and 200ft-lbf will come.

Also, seeing how the engine modder literally designed his own hemisphrical heads for a Ford big block most not have been cheap. This engine is sure to cost well above $15K.
__________________

Squirrel of Death!
Do not **** off the SoD!!!!
JIM5.0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2013, 03:01 PM   #19
psfracer
 
psfracer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Vehicle: 2006, Ford, Mustang
Location: CA
Posts: 2
Default

Wow, there is so much mis-information in this thread I don't even know where to start.

First, with what I agree with:

For a street application, just stick with a mod motor, going big block ford would be a waste of time.

However, for a race application, I definitely disagree. I make close to 1,000 hp all motor, with reliability, run after run. The 572 cid motor I am running turns 8s also without even trying @ 3420lbs. Meanwhile I have a couple friends with mod motors pushing 25+ lbs of boost, loosing head gaskets, one lost a block, transmissions, etc.

The technology is there in the cylinder heads. Look at the TFS A460 head, the Kaase P51 head, the C460 heads, big power makers. I have a 4.500 stroke and routinely shift at 7500 rpm and have the limiter set at 8000.

In short, if you think the BBF is just an outdated boat anchor, then you need to do some reading before posting about a subject you know nothing about.

BTW, I don't know how I got here....lol, I was searching for something and this came up.
__________________
2006 Mustang GT - 572 cid BBF
9.168 @ 149.65 mph all motor @ 3340lbs
8.579 @ 158.78 mph 250 shot @ 3420lbs
www.psfracer.com
psfracer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2013, 03:08 PM   #20
psfracer
 
psfracer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Vehicle: 2006, Ford, Mustang
Location: CA
Posts: 2
Default

Oh, and you can use the same aftermarket k-member (BMR, Racecraft), you just need to make different motor mounts. Combine that with the right oil pan (MOR 20625) and you are done.
__________________
2006 Mustang GT - 572 cid BBF
9.168 @ 149.65 mph all motor @ 3340lbs
8.579 @ 158.78 mph 250 shot @ 3420lbs
www.psfracer.com
psfracer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2013, 03:08 PM
MustangForums
Ford Mustang




Paid Advertisement

 
 
 
Reply

Tags
2011, autotrader, big, buildup, coyote, dakota, dodge, engine, engines, fit, motor, mustang, mustangs, put, school, type

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

Forum Jump

Advertising

Featured Sponsors
Vendor Directory
New Sponsors
All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:44 PM.

© Internet Brands, Inc.


This forum is owned and operated by Internet Brands, Inc., a Delaware corporation. It is not authorized or endorsed by the Ford Motor Company and is not affiliated with the Ford Motor Company or its related companies in any way. Ford® is a registered trademark of the Ford Motor Company
Emails Backup