Is 500 RWHP possible naturally aspirated?
02-06-2012, 05:13 PM
#22
6th Gear Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: state of confusion
Posts: 7,635
but with FRPP (not to mention so many other kits out there) putting two supercharger packages out, both over 500 (one over 600) seems like the need for forged internals wouldn't necessarily be absolute. I am more curious about the top end of the motor and what kind of flow can be achieved to move the kind of air and create the kind of efficiency needed to move higher.
Thoughts?
Thoughts?
The inertia loads in the rotating assembly get higher as a second order function of rpm (think "rpm squared").
So if you need 15% more rpms in a NA engine to make your power number the inertia loads for the same-weight internals will run a little more than 32% higher at the same power level. This peaks at TDC at the end of the exhaust stroke where the crankpin noses over and starts going back down. The piston inertia force applied to the rod and the crankpin is actually upward at that instant, so it is not being limited by how much power is being made and the downward forces like you might think. It's the rpm it takes to make it. Sounds to me like stronger stuff is indicated . . .
Norm
02-06-2012, 07:02 PM
#23
4th Gear Member
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 1,731
That picture is actually of the Homestead race track and is very active in the NASA series (National Auto Sport Association). We entered it 3 times and won the event each time.
That car competes in the GT3 class in endurance races only and the team is VDS Racing Adventures.
The US program/schedule isn't a priority since the car is too competitive here and we can't enter races like the Rollex or Sebring etc...
They don't like the idea of a Mustang beating their precious Porsches so we'd have to either add weight or drop the horse power, fukk that!! Now that we have the car dialed in...
To give you an idea, that car ran a 1:28.9 (fastest lap of the day) at Road Atlanta last December on a tired clutch, lol.
So we are content with racing in Europe (Won the 12hrs of Hungary last April) and Dubai mostly.
We also run a FR500C in the GT4 class there as well...
As far as the Cammer in the 500C, it's a rather tamed mill at 420 ponies but it's bullet proof.
The 500C won the European GT4 championship in 07 and 08 with Eric de Donker and his team at the time. Ford didn't sponsor him for 09 so he moved on another class and car, real shame. Boooooo Ford.
The whole 07 season was done on the same engine and De Donker never opened it up.
VDS bought the 07 car from De Donker and if I remember correctly, it ran two endurance races in 08 before pulling the engine out solely for piece of mind because that mill still showed no signs of fatigue!!! Unreal.
The Cammer in the FR500GT is a different animal... reworked heads and cams and totally different intake from the 500C.
But it didn't do good in endurance here in the States. Ford entered these cars in the Rollex in 07 but the engines blew up at midways.
Since then, we bought all 3 cars that were ever made and had Roush/Yates do the engines entirely (Roush blocks etc...).
Those engine stay together now but it didn't happen on the first try though.
We found out that 700hp NA was pushing it, lol.
But the difference between the Coyote and the Cammer that's in the 500C, is not only the heads but the intake as well. And I believe that it's the most important thing between the two. See pic:
But it won't bolt up to the Coyote's heads...
That car competes in the GT3 class in endurance races only and the team is VDS Racing Adventures.
The US program/schedule isn't a priority since the car is too competitive here and we can't enter races like the Rollex or Sebring etc...
They don't like the idea of a Mustang beating their precious Porsches so we'd have to either add weight or drop the horse power, fukk that!! Now that we have the car dialed in...
To give you an idea, that car ran a 1:28.9 (fastest lap of the day) at Road Atlanta last December on a tired clutch, lol.
So we are content with racing in Europe (Won the 12hrs of Hungary last April) and Dubai mostly.
We also run a FR500C in the GT4 class there as well...
As far as the Cammer in the 500C, it's a rather tamed mill at 420 ponies but it's bullet proof.
The 500C won the European GT4 championship in 07 and 08 with Eric de Donker and his team at the time. Ford didn't sponsor him for 09 so he moved on another class and car, real shame. Boooooo Ford.
The whole 07 season was done on the same engine and De Donker never opened it up.
VDS bought the 07 car from De Donker and if I remember correctly, it ran two endurance races in 08 before pulling the engine out solely for piece of mind because that mill still showed no signs of fatigue!!! Unreal.
The Cammer in the FR500GT is a different animal... reworked heads and cams and totally different intake from the 500C.
But it didn't do good in endurance here in the States. Ford entered these cars in the Rollex in 07 but the engines blew up at midways.
Since then, we bought all 3 cars that were ever made and had Roush/Yates do the engines entirely (Roush blocks etc...).
Those engine stay together now but it didn't happen on the first try though.
We found out that 700hp NA was pushing it, lol.
But the difference between the Coyote and the Cammer that's in the 500C, is not only the heads but the intake as well. And I believe that it's the most important thing between the two. See pic:
But it won't bolt up to the Coyote's heads...
wow this was a freaking awesome read. no idea you were involved in racing lol i thought you just did body work!
02-06-2012, 08:03 PM
#24
S197 Section Modder-ator
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Orlando FL
Posts: 13,373
The sad thing is, those cars are already obsolete in those classes since they're not the current body style anymore.
Ironically WE, Europeans, have had most of the success with the S197 in road racing and it's the best platform to date on a Mustang, despite its weight and live axle.
In the GT4 class in 07 and 08, we p#ssed off the power houses like Astons, Ferrari etc... with a supposedly "primitive" car on half the budget, lol.
Way the represent the American icon without the help of its Country of origin too.
02-06-2012, 08:17 PM
#25
4th Gear Member
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 1,731
Yeah man, too bad it's only a few races here in the US and not a high caliber ones at that.
The sad thing is, those cars are already obsolete in those classes since they're not the current body style anymore.
Ironically WE, Europeans, have had most of the success with the S197 in road racing and it's the best platform to date on a Mustang, despite its weight and live axle.
In the GT4 class in 07 and 08, we p#ssed off the power houses like Astons, Ferrari etc... with a supposedly "primitive" car on half the budget, lol.
Way the represent the American icon without the help of its Country of origin too.
The sad thing is, those cars are already obsolete in those classes since they're not the current body style anymore.
Ironically WE, Europeans, have had most of the success with the S197 in road racing and it's the best platform to date on a Mustang, despite its weight and live axle.
In the GT4 class in 07 and 08, we p#ssed off the power houses like Astons, Ferrari etc... with a supposedly "primitive" car on half the budget, lol.
Way the represent the American icon without the help of its Country of origin too.
02-06-2012, 08:24 PM
#26
1st Gear Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Alabama (Birmingham)
Posts: 55
Does anyone know if any aftermarket companies are doing any R&D on different intake designs for the coyote? It would be cool to try different runner lengths, or maybe a tapered runner. I know the boss 302 intake really opens up the breathing at higher RPM....
05-19-2012, 03:56 PM
#27
1st Gear Member
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 55
In Fact 522 rwhp is possible
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfpM9IUoI4k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOlP7...hannel&list=UL
yeah that is my car. Number was achieved on 91 octane gas. Others that have achieved 500+ have used race gas. these are real world numbers. I am currently driving on this tune. Car dynoed at 350hp and 318ftlbs when stock. That is why they call that Clayton Dyno the humbler
Built short block, forged bottom end, deck plated / line bored, wiseco forged pistons, forged rods, crank balanced and polished, Boss Intake, Livernois ported heads, Comp stage two camd, Boss valve Springs, Boss Oil Cooler, Boss Oil Pan.
Thanks to Brian Shapiro and Mason at B&D Racing in Van Nuys California.
for making my vision of a naturally aspirated high revving screamer a reality
Car is docile, driveable and insanely fast.
522rwhp@7700 rpm 378rwt@6550
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOlP7...hannel&list=UL
yeah that is my car. Number was achieved on 91 octane gas. Others that have achieved 500+ have used race gas. these are real world numbers. I am currently driving on this tune. Car dynoed at 350hp and 318ftlbs when stock. That is why they call that Clayton Dyno the humbler
Built short block, forged bottom end, deck plated / line bored, wiseco forged pistons, forged rods, crank balanced and polished, Boss Intake, Livernois ported heads, Comp stage two camd, Boss valve Springs, Boss Oil Cooler, Boss Oil Pan.
Thanks to Brian Shapiro and Mason at B&D Racing in Van Nuys California.
for making my vision of a naturally aspirated high revving screamer a reality
Car is docile, driveable and insanely fast.
522rwhp@7700 rpm 378rwt@6550
05-19-2012, 09:05 PM
#29
1st Gear Member
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 55
Cost twice as much as a blower. Redline is 7700 we can't coax the ecu past that. This engine will pull past 8000 and if you listen to the dyno video and look at the graph you can see that the engine is not turning over at 7700 rpm. We had two goals: 500+ RWHP and 8000rpm. We accomplished one of the goals. I gave up on the other because I havent had my car for 5 months and now I want to drive this bad boy. If SCT solves the rpm dilemma in the future than I might revisit goal # 2, but till then I will be happy with what I have got.
Last edited by lawman1; 05-19-2012 at 09:10 PM. Reason: incomplete
05-19-2012, 09:39 PM
#30
2nd Gear Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: TX
Posts: 220
Since we're on the subject of power and motor strength I have a question. Are the people putting forced induction on these 11:1 motors playing with fire, or has it been proven that the coyote will handle it just fine? Are any parts forged?