2014 MT82 with 14k miles warranty VOIDED, dealer extorting me for $2k in fees
12-04-2014, 07:34 AM
#41
2nd Gear Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Posts: 459
I'm sure Ford wouldn't just say no to a warranty at 14Km, unless there was something that they could stand on. With the addition of the "Black Box" on the all the 13 models and up, anyone who does anything to abuse their vehicles, will end up, paying for more than they bargain for. They build us a car that says "drive the hell of me", but if something breaks, you could be on the loosing end of a big bill for repairs.
Just something for everyone with the 13 and newer model year cars to think about. ALL cars & light trucks have a 'black box' now, so you need to be straight up or they might deny your claim. Being honest, might save you some real big hassles later.
Good luck with your claim. I spent 5 years doing warranty for GM (4) and Ford for the other year. There were times when you knew someone did some real damage to their cars, but without proof, we usually honored all the claims. With these boxes on the new vehicles, gone are those days. Can you imagine a new HellCat or Shelby or Z28 in for repairs, only to be denied because your "black box" shows you were trying to turn 9k on the engine and something didn't hold up.
Times are changing, and not necessarily for the best. JMO.
Just something for everyone with the 13 and newer model year cars to think about. ALL cars & light trucks have a 'black box' now, so you need to be straight up or they might deny your claim. Being honest, might save you some real big hassles later.
Good luck with your claim. I spent 5 years doing warranty for GM (4) and Ford for the other year. There were times when you knew someone did some real damage to their cars, but without proof, we usually honored all the claims. With these boxes on the new vehicles, gone are those days. Can you imagine a new HellCat or Shelby or Z28 in for repairs, only to be denied because your "black box" shows you were trying to turn 9k on the engine and something didn't hold up.
Times are changing, and not necessarily for the best. JMO.
12-04-2014, 02:48 PM
#42
4th Gear Member
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: California
Posts: 1,495
You shouldn't trust black boxes 100%. I think (correct me if I'm wrong) the black box uses the same sensors as those that are used for operating the car.
One time I had my foot on the brake pedal, and only on the brake pedal; the car was idling at about 600 rpm. When I shifted from Drive to Park, my foot had not moved, but the rpm went up to about 6000 rpm. I took my foot off the brake pedal and blipped the gas pedal. Old school--that's the way I got a cold engine with a carburetor off fast idle. Anyway, it worked, and the rpm dropped back to normal idle.
The dealer ran tests on the car, but could find nothing wrong; the carpet was secured with the hook and was not interfering with the gas pedal. The response from an engineer at Ford Motor Company--It could not have happened because of the safeguards built into the car. But it did happen; I was there, and he wasn't. There are complaints on file with NHTSA about similar occurrences.
While black boxes may be correct 99.9% of the time, they are not correct 100% of the time.
One time I had my foot on the brake pedal, and only on the brake pedal; the car was idling at about 600 rpm. When I shifted from Drive to Park, my foot had not moved, but the rpm went up to about 6000 rpm. I took my foot off the brake pedal and blipped the gas pedal. Old school--that's the way I got a cold engine with a carburetor off fast idle. Anyway, it worked, and the rpm dropped back to normal idle.
The dealer ran tests on the car, but could find nothing wrong; the carpet was secured with the hook and was not interfering with the gas pedal. The response from an engineer at Ford Motor Company--It could not have happened because of the safeguards built into the car. But it did happen; I was there, and he wasn't. There are complaints on file with NHTSA about similar occurrences.
While black boxes may be correct 99.9% of the time, they are not correct 100% of the time.
12-04-2014, 07:28 PM
#43
5th Gear Member
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Redding, CA
Posts: 4,552
A friend of mine had a problem with a dealership here in town. The dealership would not honor a warranty claim. He went back and forth with them for a month or two with no good result happening. During the last conversation with the dealership, he told him that he was retired and had plenty of time on his hands. He would be out in front of the dealership in the morning picketing. He said all he needs to do is turn one person around and they'll loose more money from that car sale than my repair.
He showed up with his sign. People honked in support. Two hours later his car was on the rack getting fixed under warranty.
He showed up with his sign. People honked in support. Two hours later his car was on the rack getting fixed under warranty.
12-04-2014, 09:01 PM
#44
3rd Gear Member
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location:
Posts: 737
two grand to pull a tranny and open it up? I swapped my clutch this summer, it was a pretty easy job, and it was only the third time in my life I swapped out a clutch... my car was 8 yrs old, surely a 14k car would be cleaner/easier to pull apart, then by a 'pro' with all the tools/training? I highly doubt they have more than a few hours in getting it out/maybe a hour to split the case...
would be interested to see the warranty removal time allocation, and the rebuild time allocation. bet its not over 8 total. IMO whether warranty ends up paying or not, they went in under warranty time constraints didnt they?
can Deysha or someone with dealer connections find out? if they are bilking 20 hours or whatever for half the work, I think Ford needs to know about it- its their name on the sign that dealers often trash ..."yeah Ford denied it, you owe me a bunch of money, blah, blah, blah..."
I'm still pissed at ford about their bubbly mustang hood paint though- they deserve all the black eyes they get over that...but this 2 grand bill sounds like a greedy/opportunistic dealer taking advantage of someone, not Ford.
Also wonder if the service engineer is the last word- would seem being just human, a second opinion could be asked for... the guy mighta had a bad day/missed some possibility- in any event think he should have detailed how he based his decision... what if the gear was defective, and the owner let it get worse and worse and worse...might 'look' like abuse, know what i mean? might at least be a possibly shared responsibility.
I had a new honda ATV recalled for a kickstarter issue- big repair, i never had any issues, didnt want it tore apart... well it stripped a week after the warranty, and I was SOL... had to buy the parts, pull the motor apart(man those cases are FULL of stuff), I really thought they mighta at least discounted the parts- nope... my fault for not taking it in, but still...
12-04-2014, 09:16 PM
#45
5th Gear Member
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 2,549
I agree, sounds like a dealer to stay away from.
two grand to pull a tranny and open it up? I swapped my clutch this summer, it was a pretty easy job, and it was only the third time in my life I swapped out a clutch... my car was 8 yrs old, surely a 14k car would be cleaner/easier to pull apart, then by a 'pro' with all the tools/training? I highly doubt they have more than a few hours in getting it out/maybe a hour to split the case...
would be interested to see the warranty removal time allocation, and the rebuild time allocation. bet its not over 8 total. IMO whether warranty ends up paying or not, they went in under warranty time constraints didnt they?
can Deysha or someone with dealer connections find out? if they are bilking 20 hours or whatever for half the work, I think Ford needs to know about it- its their name on the sign that dealers often trash ..."yeah Ford denied it, you owe me a bunch of money, blah, blah, blah..."
I'm still pissed at ford about their bubbly mustang hood paint though- they deserve all the black eyes they get over that...but this 2 grand bill sounds like a greedy/opportunistic dealer taking advantage of someone, not Ford.
Also wonder if the service engineer is the last word- would seem being just human, a second opinion could be asked for... the guy mighta had a bad day/missed some possibility- in any event think he should have detailed how he based his decision... what if the gear was defective, and the owner let it get worse and worse and worse...might 'look' like abuse, know what i mean? might at least be a possibly shared responsibility.
I had a new honda ATV recalled for a kickstarter issue- big repair, i never had any issues, didnt want it tore apart... well it stripped a week after the warranty, and I was SOL... had to buy the parts, pull the motor apart(man those cases are FULL of stuff), I really thought they mighta at least discounted the parts- nope... my fault for not taking it in, but still...
two grand to pull a tranny and open it up? I swapped my clutch this summer, it was a pretty easy job, and it was only the third time in my life I swapped out a clutch... my car was 8 yrs old, surely a 14k car would be cleaner/easier to pull apart, then by a 'pro' with all the tools/training? I highly doubt they have more than a few hours in getting it out/maybe a hour to split the case...
would be interested to see the warranty removal time allocation, and the rebuild time allocation. bet its not over 8 total. IMO whether warranty ends up paying or not, they went in under warranty time constraints didnt they?
can Deysha or someone with dealer connections find out? if they are bilking 20 hours or whatever for half the work, I think Ford needs to know about it- its their name on the sign that dealers often trash ..."yeah Ford denied it, you owe me a bunch of money, blah, blah, blah..."
I'm still pissed at ford about their bubbly mustang hood paint though- they deserve all the black eyes they get over that...but this 2 grand bill sounds like a greedy/opportunistic dealer taking advantage of someone, not Ford.
Also wonder if the service engineer is the last word- would seem being just human, a second opinion could be asked for... the guy mighta had a bad day/missed some possibility- in any event think he should have detailed how he based his decision... what if the gear was defective, and the owner let it get worse and worse and worse...might 'look' like abuse, know what i mean? might at least be a possibly shared responsibility.
I had a new honda ATV recalled for a kickstarter issue- big repair, i never had any issues, didnt want it tore apart... well it stripped a week after the warranty, and I was SOL... had to buy the parts, pull the motor apart(man those cases are FULL of stuff), I really thought they mighta at least discounted the parts- nope... my fault for not taking it in, but still...
12-04-2014, 09:51 PM
#46
1st Gear Member
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: mn
Posts: 109
Well First off, NHTSA got a total of 32 complains, not hundreds, none of which pertain to the circumstances your posting about. They got complains about difficult shifting in cold weather, and the clutch stayout condition above 4,000 RPM. Both of which resulted in TSBs being issued.
Secondly, to have a transmission chew up a synchro within 14,000 miles, there absolutely had to be some sort of abuse. Whether that was you, or someone who test drove the car before you bought it, no one can know.
Thirdly, if you plan on accusing someone of something, you had better be prepared to prove it, because if the statement is provable, and public, but there is no evidence to support it, you can and will be sued for libel/defamation.
Fourthly, why would you take your car in for repairs without having some money saved up for such a situation? I wouldn't even think of taking my car in without at least 3k set aside just in case something were to happen, but hey, that's just me.
For future reference, when you take your car anywhere, you need a written estimate that clearly describes every action the dealership is authorized to take on your behalf, with the associated cost. When they call you with news, you need to document everything they said, and take the persons name, with time and date. If you can, record the call, for exactly this type of situation.
If you had a recording of everything you say the foreman said, a written initial estimate, and documentation of everything, it would take a single call to FoMoCo or the State Attorney General to have their position reversed.
As you sit now, there's really not much you can do outside of saving up the 2k, or more reasonably the 6100, and paying for the new transmission.
Private companies are not required to prove anything regarding abuse, you are not innocent until proven guilty, in their eyes, except regarding statutes such as the one regarding modifications.
Here's a quote from Edmunds to illustrate my point
Secondly, to have a transmission chew up a synchro within 14,000 miles, there absolutely had to be some sort of abuse. Whether that was you, or someone who test drove the car before you bought it, no one can know.
Thirdly, if you plan on accusing someone of something, you had better be prepared to prove it, because if the statement is provable, and public, but there is no evidence to support it, you can and will be sued for libel/defamation.
Fourthly, why would you take your car in for repairs without having some money saved up for such a situation? I wouldn't even think of taking my car in without at least 3k set aside just in case something were to happen, but hey, that's just me.
For future reference, when you take your car anywhere, you need a written estimate that clearly describes every action the dealership is authorized to take on your behalf, with the associated cost. When they call you with news, you need to document everything they said, and take the persons name, with time and date. If you can, record the call, for exactly this type of situation.
If you had a recording of everything you say the foreman said, a written initial estimate, and documentation of everything, it would take a single call to FoMoCo or the State Attorney General to have their position reversed.
As you sit now, there's really not much you can do outside of saving up the 2k, or more reasonably the 6100, and paying for the new transmission.
Private companies are not required to prove anything regarding abuse, you are not innocent until proven guilty, in their eyes, except regarding statutes such as the one regarding modifications.
Here's a quote from Edmunds to illustrate my point
Last edited by roegs; 12-04-2014 at 09:54 PM.
12-04-2014, 10:38 PM
#47
5th Gear Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 3,731
This has to be one of the most unhelpful replies I've seen in a long time. A young guy saves all his money for a dream car (that has full factory warranty)and you claim he should have $3k laying around just in case?? Also, we're supposed to record every call we get from a dealer just in case? I think not. Based on what the OP described in his initial post this just needed attention at a higher level at Ford or for a lawyer to help him out. Sounds like he's now working with the right folks at Ford and I'm pretty certain they'll help him out.
You and he are more than welcome to continue living above your means, I prefer to continue living well within mine. Sorry my parents taught me to be socially responsible, don't know what to tell you there.
My parents taught me to always have money saved away for a rainy day, and to always cover my ***. It's also prevented me from ever being in the OP's position.
Unhelpful? Had he recorded those phone calls, specifically one in which a service manager said the FSE made a decision in less than 15 seconds of viewing a car, he wouldn't be in a position to post this thread, since it never would have gotten beyond that, his car would be fixed and in his possession.
Lawyer's usually cost on the order of several hundred dollars an hour, which would easily cost him 2,000 dollars after having this sorted out.
Higher attention to detail? How about just making sure you're not leaving yourself open to being taken advantage of. HR people even have a term for it, it's called CYA - Cover Your ***.
Pro Tip: If it takes 3 years to save up for something, it's out of your budget. BTW, there are literally thousands of articles online confirming this, here's the first one I could find on google.
The math is simple. How much money do you make in a year? Take 20% of your gross annual income (before taxes, social security, etc) and that’s how much car you can afford.
12-05-2014, 08:52 AM
#48
2nd Gear Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Colorado
Posts: 184
You and he are more than welcome to continue living above your means, I prefer to continue living well within mine. Sorry my parents taught me to be socially responsible, don't know what to tell you there.
My parents taught me to always have money saved away for a rainy day, and to always cover my ***. It's also prevented me from ever being in the OP's position.
Unhelpful? Had he recorded those phone calls, specifically one in which a service manager said the FSE made a decision in less than 15 seconds of viewing a car, he wouldn't be in a position to post this thread, since it never would have gotten beyond that, his car would be fixed and in his possession.
Lawyer's usually cost on the order of several hundred dollars an hour, which would easily cost him 2,000 dollars after having this sorted out.
Higher attention to detail? How about just making sure you're not leaving yourself open to being taken advantage of. HR people even have a term for it, it's called CYA - Cover Your ***.
Pro Tip: If it takes 3 years to save up for something, it's out of your budget. BTW, there are literally thousands of articles online confirming this, here's the first one I could find on google.
My parents taught me to always have money saved away for a rainy day, and to always cover my ***. It's also prevented me from ever being in the OP's position.
Unhelpful? Had he recorded those phone calls, specifically one in which a service manager said the FSE made a decision in less than 15 seconds of viewing a car, he wouldn't be in a position to post this thread, since it never would have gotten beyond that, his car would be fixed and in his possession.
Lawyer's usually cost on the order of several hundred dollars an hour, which would easily cost him 2,000 dollars after having this sorted out.
Higher attention to detail? How about just making sure you're not leaving yourself open to being taken advantage of. HR people even have a term for it, it's called CYA - Cover Your ***.
Pro Tip: If it takes 3 years to save up for something, it's out of your budget. BTW, there are literally thousands of articles online confirming this, here's the first one I could find on google.
My parents taught me to work hard for what I want, and I can have it. Well I have worked my *** off for this car, and I don't think anyone can contest that.
Pro Tip: Worry about your own financials rather than some random person's on a forum.. you'll probably be happier and sleep better at night.
12-05-2014, 09:07 AM
#49
5th Gear Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Clermont, FL
Posts: 2,952
Really? So its better to buy a car on a loan for 3 yrs and hope nothing happens that you cant make the payments and risk having it repo'd?
12-05-2014, 11:03 AM
#50
5th Gear Member
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Redding, CA
Posts: 4,552
It is illegal to record a conversation with someone on the phone or in person in most states. So before you do that, make sure you are within the confines of law.
To say because a syncro failed is only because of abuse is a little irresponsible. A part can be damaged from a number of things, abuse being one. So fingers should not be pointed unless there is something other than failure of the part.
I somewhat agree with what ArizonaGT says, but not in the same terms. People's financial situation differ and their means of repaying a loan sometimes vary. Stating absolutes how finances should work for everyone is little arrogant.
I think the OP depended on his factory warranty to help him out on repairs, so having 3k sitting around for him to use for repair is not really feasible.
Back on topic:
Syncros shouldn't fail for a long time. I am not a mechanic by any means, but am experienced enough with these cars to say Ford builds them with the idea that they will be driven as intended. Seems to be there is a bean counter at the dealership holding up the process and in return, they may lose future business.
My car has 44k on it. 30k+ has been FI, the last 20 has been with over 550 rwhp and DR's. Original tranny. I have made 200+ passes at the track and at least half are in the 1.5x 60'. It's a good tranny. It's different than the new transmissions, but it's an example of something that lasts.
Seems a new tranny would be Fords best option, their cost is going to be more than what the repair sets them back in the long run.
To say because a syncro failed is only because of abuse is a little irresponsible. A part can be damaged from a number of things, abuse being one. So fingers should not be pointed unless there is something other than failure of the part.
I somewhat agree with what ArizonaGT says, but not in the same terms. People's financial situation differ and their means of repaying a loan sometimes vary. Stating absolutes how finances should work for everyone is little arrogant.
I think the OP depended on his factory warranty to help him out on repairs, so having 3k sitting around for him to use for repair is not really feasible.
Back on topic:
Syncros shouldn't fail for a long time. I am not a mechanic by any means, but am experienced enough with these cars to say Ford builds them with the idea that they will be driven as intended. Seems to be there is a bean counter at the dealership holding up the process and in return, they may lose future business.
My car has 44k on it. 30k+ has been FI, the last 20 has been with over 550 rwhp and DR's. Original tranny. I have made 200+ passes at the track and at least half are in the 1.5x 60'. It's a good tranny. It's different than the new transmissions, but it's an example of something that lasts.
Seems a new tranny would be Fords best option, their cost is going to be more than what the repair sets them back in the long run.