I have the water leak, Ford: "we won't pay for it"
01-23-2016, 08:55 AM
#11
2nd Gear Member
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Posts: 155
Well design flaws should be treated a little different I think IMO. Designing something that is prone to failure, cause problems that become known issues or perhaps lasts till the warranty is over is just wrong. I have no problem with normal wear and tear, regular maintenance items and things that just break, but things like the broken spark plugs that they actually designed a broken spark plug removal tool, hood corrosion because of steel particles in the aluminum fold that they paint over as a remedy, and a drain that was too small and prone to plugging (why don't they put something in the manual to say to keep it clean because it tends to catch leaves etc.) Enter the air bag design issue - because it is a safety issue, they are forced to fix it by legislation. You'd think by now with over 100 years of automotive design, they would learn what not to do.
01-23-2016, 09:07 AM
#12
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Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 874
Well design flaws should be treated a little different I think IMO. Designing something that is prone to failure, cause problems that become known issues or perhaps lasts till the warranty is over is just wrong. I have no problem with normal wear and tear, regular maintenance items and things that just break, but things like the broken spark plugs that they actually designed a broken spark plug removal tool, hood corrosion because of steel particles in the aluminum fold that they paint over as a remedy, and a drain that was too small and prone to plugging (why don't they put something in the manual to say to keep it clean because it tends to catch leaves etc.) Enter the air bag design issue - because it is a safety issue, they are forced to fix it by legislation. You'd think by now with over 100 years of automotive design, they would learn what not to do.
01-23-2016, 10:00 AM
#13
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Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Posts: 155
Agreed - but if they actually fixed the design flaws while in the warranty period the problems would go away.
1) spark plugs - there is a TSB on it and in late 07 they changed the head design so they acknowledge the issue but won't fix it on their own. The solution here is a 1 piece plug or some never seize on the snorkel. I was told by the dealer that my 07 didn't have the issue - until I went back after the warranty was over and the Service Clown laughed when he said I did have the issue and quoted me $1000 if they all broke.
2) Hood - replace it with a non contaminated one rather than just paint over it until the warranty is over and it bubbles again as they are doing. The present warranty covers perforation caused by corrosion, but does not address contamination caused issues because of a flawed manufacturing process. I wouldn't even think of a new aluminum F-150 - would you?
3) Cowl drain plugging - install some screening under the cowl to keep leaves out. Not that hard. Most other cars don't have this plugging issue for some reason - maybe because the holes in the cowl are smaller(?) to keep leaves out. The fact they cleaned and repaired it once (under warranty) indicates it is a known problem. Perhaps they also should have told the OP at the time what to do to prevent this from happening - but then that is admitting a design flaw with no apparent solution to prevent it from re-occuring.
1) spark plugs - there is a TSB on it and in late 07 they changed the head design so they acknowledge the issue but won't fix it on their own. The solution here is a 1 piece plug or some never seize on the snorkel. I was told by the dealer that my 07 didn't have the issue - until I went back after the warranty was over and the Service Clown laughed when he said I did have the issue and quoted me $1000 if they all broke.
2) Hood - replace it with a non contaminated one rather than just paint over it until the warranty is over and it bubbles again as they are doing. The present warranty covers perforation caused by corrosion, but does not address contamination caused issues because of a flawed manufacturing process. I wouldn't even think of a new aluminum F-150 - would you?
3) Cowl drain plugging - install some screening under the cowl to keep leaves out. Not that hard. Most other cars don't have this plugging issue for some reason - maybe because the holes in the cowl are smaller(?) to keep leaves out. The fact they cleaned and repaired it once (under warranty) indicates it is a known problem. Perhaps they also should have told the OP at the time what to do to prevent this from happening - but then that is admitting a design flaw with no apparent solution to prevent it from re-occuring.
01-23-2016, 11:13 AM
#14
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location:
Posts: 906
So?
That's what the warranty is for. The car manufacturer states it will fix defects for however long the warranty is for, and you agreed to it. They did fix it, at least for six years. Beyond that, they can still fix it, but you'll have to pay for it.
This is the contract you entered into. Ford upheld their end of the bargain and you're complaining about it? Good customer service doesn't necessarily mean they'll give you whatever you want, no matter what, just because you're the customer. You, as the customer, are entitled to what the contract you agreed to says you're entitled to and nothing more. As long as they're being polite to you when they're informing you of this fact, I fail to see what the problem is.
That's what the warranty is for. The car manufacturer states it will fix defects for however long the warranty is for, and you agreed to it. They did fix it, at least for six years. Beyond that, they can still fix it, but you'll have to pay for it.
This is the contract you entered into. Ford upheld their end of the bargain and you're complaining about it? Good customer service doesn't necessarily mean they'll give you whatever you want, no matter what, just because you're the customer. You, as the customer, are entitled to what the contract you agreed to says you're entitled to and nothing more. As long as they're being polite to you when they're informing you of this fact, I fail to see what the problem is.
You should be a corporate lawyer! If you aren't already that is.
01-23-2016, 04:28 PM
#16
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Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: CA
Posts: 2,073
2) Hood - replace it with a non contaminated one rather than just paint over it until the warranty is over and it bubbles again as they are doing. The present warranty covers perforation caused by corrosion, but does not address contamination caused issues because of a flawed manufacturing process. I wouldn't even think of a new aluminum F-150 - would you?
They've had 10 years to refine their processes on painting aluminum body panels... GM had a seriously bad rap for paint, you couldn't find a single one with original paint that doesn't have the clear peeling off at about 8-10 years, point being every manufacturer is evolving, the price we pay with Ford is that they tend to push the envelope harder than their rivals, which is why you have things like the focus RS coming out with 350HP AWD from a 4-banger, the GT supercar with over 600 from a V-6, the weight reduction on the F150 (aluminum body) that has led to a 0-60 time of 5.6 seconds for the 3.5L V6 ecoboost (that's faster than the stock '67 GT500 by the way).
Any business can only support warranty claims for so long before they have to cut the umbilical cord. I mean by the time the warranty is expired you should have the car payed off, $1000 in maintenance looks like a lot until you realize it's the equivalent of 2 months car payments and it may be the only expense you have on you car this year. If spending the money on maintaining your car bothers you then maybe you should trade it in and get a new model under warranty and get that car payment back.
Last edited by danzcool; 01-23-2016 at 04:41 PM.
01-25-2016, 03:50 PM
#18
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Posts: 906
It's a defective design...
This isn't some glue that fell apart or a belt that snapped. It's a defective design that allows water to enter the cabin. The right thing to do would have been for Ford to issue a recall and install a permanent correction to the issue, no matter the mileage. I think a key oversight of this size requires a response by Ford to help their loyal customers, who now have to pay out of their own pocket for a key design flaw. Plus the water entering the cabin can cause all kinds of other problems. My car still hasn't smelled the same since I got the leak.
I opened up the cowl today and this is what I found:
There was no water at all, or debris, in the trough where the cabin air filter is.
So I'm guessing when they did that first repair they just pumped some black silicone around the original heat seals instead of installing new ones? Any expertise or info on what I'm looking at here? Thx.
This isn't some glue that fell apart or a belt that snapped. It's a defective design that allows water to enter the cabin. The right thing to do would have been for Ford to issue a recall and install a permanent correction to the issue, no matter the mileage. I think a key oversight of this size requires a response by Ford to help their loyal customers, who now have to pay out of their own pocket for a key design flaw. Plus the water entering the cabin can cause all kinds of other problems. My car still hasn't smelled the same since I got the leak.
I opened up the cowl today and this is what I found:
There was no water at all, or debris, in the trough where the cabin air filter is.
So I'm guessing when they did that first repair they just pumped some black silicone around the original heat seals instead of installing new ones? Any expertise or info on what I'm looking at here? Thx.
Last edited by ThaiCobra; 01-25-2016 at 03:52 PM.
01-26-2016, 01:33 AM
#19
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Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: CA
Posts: 2,073
I'm assuming you've been through the following thread and seen all the areas addressed?
It's a long thread but there was the revised TSB listed there (somewhere) that talks about the testing procedure and details all the water paths into the vehicle. Several years ago my car had the leak (while still under warranty), and the dealership fixed it using that TSB.
https://mustangforums.com/forum/2005...al-answer.html
The actual TSB: http://dev.waterdoctors.com/Files/wp...SB-08-26-7.pdf
It's a long thread but there was the revised TSB listed there (somewhere) that talks about the testing procedure and details all the water paths into the vehicle. Several years ago my car had the leak (while still under warranty), and the dealership fixed it using that TSB.
https://mustangforums.com/forum/2005...al-answer.html
The actual TSB: http://dev.waterdoctors.com/Files/wp...SB-08-26-7.pdf
Last edited by danzcool; 01-26-2016 at 01:36 AM.
01-27-2016, 07:52 AM
#20
2nd Gear Member
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Georgia
Posts: 414
On one hand, I feel like if it was "fixed" under warranty and then the problem still happens outside of the warranty, then it wasn't fixed and it's a problem that was brought to their attention while under warranty and should still be covered until properly fixed.
I had an issue with my 2003 Ford Ranger with a squeaking belt that I took in for warranty repair. At the time, I was really car dumb, and watched the tech spray WD-40 on one of the pulleys and "fix" the squeak. A month later, my warranty expires, and the squeak is back a month after that; turns out the bearings in the pulley were going bad. The dealership said they wouldn't fix it because the warranty was expired. I explained that it wasn't fixed properly while under warranty, it should have been, it was all documented, and that I was going to raise holy hell until I was satisfied. I literally told them I wasn't going away, and provided them with a copy of a letter I intended to send Ford.
My truck was fixed properly "under warranty".
On the other hand, there isn't a part that's broken on your car; it's a design flaw. Almost every car goes through an evolutionary process. You get what you pay for, and the bugs are ironed out in the next design.
I had an issue with my 2003 Ford Ranger with a squeaking belt that I took in for warranty repair. At the time, I was really car dumb, and watched the tech spray WD-40 on one of the pulleys and "fix" the squeak. A month later, my warranty expires, and the squeak is back a month after that; turns out the bearings in the pulley were going bad. The dealership said they wouldn't fix it because the warranty was expired. I explained that it wasn't fixed properly while under warranty, it should have been, it was all documented, and that I was going to raise holy hell until I was satisfied. I literally told them I wasn't going away, and provided them with a copy of a letter I intended to send Ford.
My truck was fixed properly "under warranty".
On the other hand, there isn't a part that's broken on your car; it's a design flaw. Almost every car goes through an evolutionary process. You get what you pay for, and the bugs are ironed out in the next design.
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