T3650 PARTS & FLUD LEVEL INFO
08-15-2007, 02:33 PM
#1
5th Gear Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 2,406
T3650 PARTS & FLUD LEVEL INFO
It seems that transmission problems are common for all mustang owners.. Most die hard 5.0 guys can rebuild a T5 in less time than it takes to drink a case of beer. Most 4.6 owners live with 2nd and 3rd gear grinds or other problems. The T45 and the T3650 that we beat on will actually take a fair amount of abuse, yet sooner or later, with big power and sticky tires, or even at stock power levels with continuous beating these transmissions can and will fail.
The first thing I found out when working on my 3650 is that, parts are expensive, verryyyy expensive. It is not uncommon at all for a company to sell the 2nd gear for a 3650 at the same price they sell an entire rebuild kit to a T5 for. Most places you call like to sell you an entire 3650 "rebuild kit" as well,which can range from $700 - well over a $1000 if bearings are included. Since most of us probably only need parts related to our 2nd gear abuse I found this place which I think will be very helpful.
Call Auto Gear, they are located in NY. 1-800-634-3001
http://www.autogear.net/
They have a "2nd gear fix" kit..
The kit includes:
1st & 2nd gear slider
1st & 2nd gear synchronizers/blocking rings
the actual 2nd speed gear
The price for the entire kit is a little less than $360 .. much cheaper than the $700 everyone else wants.
The difference is that with auto gear, you just get 1st and 2nd synchros, where everyone else wants to sell the entire synchronizer/bearing kit, a 2nd gear assembly, and a slider kit..
This 2nd gear fix kit basically includes the parts you need to fix your 3650 if it is grinding going into 2nd or jumping out of 2nd gear. Other problems will require other parts, but the 2nd gear grind is the most common problem with a 3650.
In my particular case.. the plastic piece on the end of each side of the 2nd gear shift fork some how got jarred off. The shift fork was pushing against the 2nd gear slider with only one side, which wasputting it in a bind. This eventually caused severe wear on the synchronizer as well as the tiny teeth on 2nd gear itself.
here is a picture..sorry for the quality (took with a motorola razr)
One other fact I have came across is that it may actually be better to lower the total amount of transmission fluid that is in the T3650.
There was an article inTransmission Digestmagazine about the 3650:
http://www.transmissiondigest.com/index.htm
It says:
"The factory rates the 3650 at 360 lb. -ft of toruqe, which is extremely conservative. I race against mustangs which are easily putting out 500-600 lb ft of torque with no ill effects on the transmission. Present day america is ruled by lawyers and most of the factories tend to be very conservative on torque ratiings to prevent unnecessary litigation."
It goes on to say..
"On 2001-04 models of the 3650 the oil fill specs was 3.8 liters of dexron III ATF. The unit was validated using mobil one synthetic transmission fluid but was changed to dexronIII for a slightly lower viscosity and improved cold shifting performance. these units has a problem with a "nibble" on the 1-2 shift, After much study and research it was found that the oil level was too high in the uni. This caused windage problems with the excess lube causing the gears to over-synchronize. this is because when the gear train is submerged in too much oil the transmission fluid overheats and foams and affects the turning ratio of the gear train similar to your trying to run on the beach in 2 feet of water. The increased resistance to turning slows the gears prematurely and alters the synchronizer timing, causing shift problems. The oil level was reduced to 3 liters and the problem was resolved."
Also stated here at fordservicetech.com : (Thanks To 03MachMe )
Some other facts I didn't know which was in this article is that there are 10 different tremec 3650's [ul][*]T3650 being used in mustangs 2/2001- 9/2001 with a .68 5th ratio[*]T3650-2 in falcon barra- austraila[*]T3650-3 in mustang 9/2001-7/2002 which has .62 5th ratio[*]T3650-4 In mustangs 7/2002 - 6/2003[*]T3650-5 in toranado australia[*]T3650-6 MG rovers[*]T3650-7 Mustang Service ***'y[*]T3650-8 Mustang 2004 GT[*]T3650-9 2004 GT[*]T3650-10 Mustang 2004 GT service ***'y[*]T3650-1 S197 mustangs, the position of the shift rails was reversed and made into a mirror image, none of the internal or external shift linkage is the same
[/ul]
SOOO .. the idea hereis to put only 3 liters
(3 liter = 3.17006463 US quarts)
..................not 3.8 of straight up cheapass automatic transmission fluid dexron III. I have heard of many people using Royal Purple Synchromax with good results as well. The 3 liters, or roughly 3.25 quarts let the syncrhonizers spin easier which cuts down the grind going into gears which will lead to longer life out of your transmission. Oiling WILL NOT be an issue by lowering the level of fluid. Both shafts are in fluid, the lower shaft being completely submerged. The lower shaft will also constantly sling fluid around inside the case oiling every gear all the time...
BUTT If its too late, don't buy an entire rebuild kit for $1000+ if you only need 2nd gear parts.. Call Auto Gear, and ask to speak to George. He will set you up right with all the parts you need to fix a 2nd gear grind for less than $360. The Transmissions are simple to work on, more so than a T5 or T45 so labor shouldn't be very much. Labor should not be over $200 and normally is around $100 in my area. (considering you take the transmission out yourself) This could add $100 or more to the cost (around $150 in my area to pull transmission) If you live in a bigger city, expect a much higher labor charge..
IF your transmission is so far gone that you are going to have to spend well over a $1000 I would suggest looking into a TKO500 or an aftermarket built 3650. The removable bellhousing alone makes the TKO dam near worth the price.
Here are a few pics of inside my own 3650 I made recently when 5th gear layed down on me.
Notice in this picture how the synchronizer teeth are "meshed" This is when 5th gear is engaged:
I took the 5th gear assembly out of a 2001 3650, the 2001 being the first 3650 has the same 5th gear ratio as a T45. The difference of .68 and .62 may not seem like a lot, but it changes the rpm per mph the same as a 4.10 vs 3.73 in 5th gear. My cruising speed in 5th with 4.10s before wasn't that bad, after the 5th gear work I hated it. I've actually went to 3.73's since then.
If you decide to look for parts out of used transmissions you will find that a T45 and a 3650 look very similar. The best way to tell the two apart is that the 3650's drain plug is on the bottom, not on the side. Even though they look similar, they are a complete different design on the inside.
One other note, I've found that it is some what common that the tailshaft housings bust on the 3650's. My friends cracked (due to abbuse) and we actually replaced it with the transmission still in the car. If anyone has more questions on this pm me.
The first thing I found out when working on my 3650 is that, parts are expensive, verryyyy expensive. It is not uncommon at all for a company to sell the 2nd gear for a 3650 at the same price they sell an entire rebuild kit to a T5 for. Most places you call like to sell you an entire 3650 "rebuild kit" as well,which can range from $700 - well over a $1000 if bearings are included. Since most of us probably only need parts related to our 2nd gear abuse I found this place which I think will be very helpful.
Call Auto Gear, they are located in NY. 1-800-634-3001
http://www.autogear.net/
They have a "2nd gear fix" kit..
The kit includes:
1st & 2nd gear slider
1st & 2nd gear synchronizers/blocking rings
the actual 2nd speed gear
The price for the entire kit is a little less than $360 .. much cheaper than the $700 everyone else wants.
The difference is that with auto gear, you just get 1st and 2nd synchros, where everyone else wants to sell the entire synchronizer/bearing kit, a 2nd gear assembly, and a slider kit..
This 2nd gear fix kit basically includes the parts you need to fix your 3650 if it is grinding going into 2nd or jumping out of 2nd gear. Other problems will require other parts, but the 2nd gear grind is the most common problem with a 3650.
In my particular case.. the plastic piece on the end of each side of the 2nd gear shift fork some how got jarred off. The shift fork was pushing against the 2nd gear slider with only one side, which wasputting it in a bind. This eventually caused severe wear on the synchronizer as well as the tiny teeth on 2nd gear itself.
here is a picture..sorry for the quality (took with a motorola razr)
One other fact I have came across is that it may actually be better to lower the total amount of transmission fluid that is in the T3650.
There was an article inTransmission Digestmagazine about the 3650:
http://www.transmissiondigest.com/index.htm
It says:
"The factory rates the 3650 at 360 lb. -ft of toruqe, which is extremely conservative. I race against mustangs which are easily putting out 500-600 lb ft of torque with no ill effects on the transmission. Present day america is ruled by lawyers and most of the factories tend to be very conservative on torque ratiings to prevent unnecessary litigation."
It goes on to say..
"On 2001-04 models of the 3650 the oil fill specs was 3.8 liters of dexron III ATF. The unit was validated using mobil one synthetic transmission fluid but was changed to dexronIII for a slightly lower viscosity and improved cold shifting performance. these units has a problem with a "nibble" on the 1-2 shift, After much study and research it was found that the oil level was too high in the uni. This caused windage problems with the excess lube causing the gears to over-synchronize. this is because when the gear train is submerged in too much oil the transmission fluid overheats and foams and affects the turning ratio of the gear train similar to your trying to run on the beach in 2 feet of water. The increased resistance to turning slows the gears prematurely and alters the synchronizer timing, causing shift problems. The oil level was reduced to 3 liters and the problem was resolved."
Also stated here at fordservicetech.com : (Thanks To 03MachMe )
Some other facts I didn't know which was in this article is that there are 10 different tremec 3650's [ul][*]T3650 being used in mustangs 2/2001- 9/2001 with a .68 5th ratio[*]T3650-2 in falcon barra- austraila[*]T3650-3 in mustang 9/2001-7/2002 which has .62 5th ratio[*]T3650-4 In mustangs 7/2002 - 6/2003[*]T3650-5 in toranado australia[*]T3650-6 MG rovers[*]T3650-7 Mustang Service ***'y[*]T3650-8 Mustang 2004 GT[*]T3650-9 2004 GT[*]T3650-10 Mustang 2004 GT service ***'y[*]T3650-1 S197 mustangs, the position of the shift rails was reversed and made into a mirror image, none of the internal or external shift linkage is the same
[/ul]
SOOO .. the idea hereis to put only 3 liters
(3 liter = 3.17006463 US quarts)
..................not 3.8 of straight up cheapass automatic transmission fluid dexron III. I have heard of many people using Royal Purple Synchromax with good results as well. The 3 liters, or roughly 3.25 quarts let the syncrhonizers spin easier which cuts down the grind going into gears which will lead to longer life out of your transmission. Oiling WILL NOT be an issue by lowering the level of fluid. Both shafts are in fluid, the lower shaft being completely submerged. The lower shaft will also constantly sling fluid around inside the case oiling every gear all the time...
BUTT If its too late, don't buy an entire rebuild kit for $1000+ if you only need 2nd gear parts.. Call Auto Gear, and ask to speak to George. He will set you up right with all the parts you need to fix a 2nd gear grind for less than $360. The Transmissions are simple to work on, more so than a T5 or T45 so labor shouldn't be very much. Labor should not be over $200 and normally is around $100 in my area. (considering you take the transmission out yourself) This could add $100 or more to the cost (around $150 in my area to pull transmission) If you live in a bigger city, expect a much higher labor charge..
IF your transmission is so far gone that you are going to have to spend well over a $1000 I would suggest looking into a TKO500 or an aftermarket built 3650. The removable bellhousing alone makes the TKO dam near worth the price.
Here are a few pics of inside my own 3650 I made recently when 5th gear layed down on me.
Notice in this picture how the synchronizer teeth are "meshed" This is when 5th gear is engaged:
I took the 5th gear assembly out of a 2001 3650, the 2001 being the first 3650 has the same 5th gear ratio as a T45. The difference of .68 and .62 may not seem like a lot, but it changes the rpm per mph the same as a 4.10 vs 3.73 in 5th gear. My cruising speed in 5th with 4.10s before wasn't that bad, after the 5th gear work I hated it. I've actually went to 3.73's since then.
If you decide to look for parts out of used transmissions you will find that a T45 and a 3650 look very similar. The best way to tell the two apart is that the 3650's drain plug is on the bottom, not on the side. Even though they look similar, they are a complete different design on the inside.
One other note, I've found that it is some what common that the tailshaft housings bust on the 3650's. My friends cracked (due to abbuse) and we actually replaced it with the transmission still in the car. If anyone has more questions on this pm me.
Last edited by Quicktime_GT; 01-21-2010 at 10:51 AM.
09-30-2007, 08:52 PM
#10
5th Gear Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 2,406
RE: 3650 PARTS
Finally got my transmission back in... The transmission shifts like new and the I loveeeee the Centerforce Dual Friction Clutch.. No shake or tremble at all taking off, the pedal isn't that heavy it handles all kinds of power.
The transmission would not go back in with the LT headers without dropping the rear of the K member a little ... It finally went in like that though...
either way.. just an update..
The transmission would not go back in with the LT headers without dropping the rear of the K member a little ... It finally went in like that though...
either way.. just an update..