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Delta Force tuning software ?'s

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Old 03-03-2010, 02:26 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by HaneyMotorsport.Com View Post
<snip>
The HPX is not maxed...5v @ 2650 flow # given. As I stated before, this is just a rough curve. If you take my 23% adjustment ( more air mass), the new 5v would be 3441.***.
Was that in a 75mm housing?

If so then the VMP worksheet is total BS--you cannot change the mass (weight here on earth) of a given mass of air by heating it, cooling it, or compressing it...
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Old 03-03-2010, 02:34 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by tbirdscwd View Post
Well, I'm hoping by the rest of your setup that those "PI cams" listed in your sig aren't Stock cam grinds. That could very well be making up the difference in power you are noting.
Cliff cleared this one up.

One thing I would like to add is this, I am not running the same heads as most of the combos you are used to seeing. I am running ported SVO heads and SVO heads by nature do not require a lot of lift much like the NPI heads. This coupled with the fact that i wanted to pass the emissions test in CA led to me using the stock PI cams.

This is one of the dyno graphs with 12psi, you can see that the car is not short on power and has a ton of usable TQ. I plan on doing running custom cams and a bigbore in the future as the car is no longer driven on the highway.

Click the image to open in full size.
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Old 03-03-2010, 02:36 PM   #43
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Was that in a 75mm housing?

If so then the VMP worksheet is total BS--you cannot change the mass (weight here on earth) of a given mass of air by heating it, cooling it, or compressing it...
and you aren't going to make 64x.xxrwhp even with that number...
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Old 03-03-2010, 02:43 PM   #44
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and you aren't going to make 64x.xxrwhp even with that number...
+110%
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Old 03-03-2010, 04:30 PM   #45
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Freeing up the path of the air doesn't necessarily mean that you are increasing the actual volume of air flowing through the engine. That blower with a certain diameter pulley is pushing a specific amount of air into that engine's combustion chambers. Changing the cams doesn't increase the amount of air that the blower is pushing. It would drop the pressure of that air by reducing a flow restriction, but the number should remain roughly the same.

Steve, I know that those heads outflow the stock PI heads and even ported PI heads, but you'd be surprized how much more vital longer duration and higher lift cams are to performance than the head itself. Stock PI heads with aftermarket cams have made over 600rwhp. As far as I know, that cannot be said the other way around.
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Old 03-03-2010, 04:36 PM   #46
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I guess I would have to have the software here infront of me to know what I'm suppose to change. Does the ammount of psi have anything to do with how much it would have to be altered? Fore example if I were running 10psi and got it right, and then bumped it up to 18 psi would the t/f be off? obviously it would need more fuel, but would the maf figure this out and whats needed or no?
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Old 03-03-2010, 04:42 PM   #47
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And BTW, it is very possible to pass smog in CA with aftermarket cams and if you have tuning software that allows you complete control of your computer's parameters, functions, and tables, you can write a tune that will allow pretty much anything to pass a sniff test.
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Old 03-03-2010, 04:47 PM   #48
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I guess I would have to have the software here infront of me to know what I'm suppose to change. Does the ammount of psi have anything to do with how much it would have to be altered? Fore example if I were running 10psi and got it right, and then bumped it up to 18 psi would the t/f be off? obviously it would need more fuel, but would the maf figure this out and add what it needed or no?
Short answer, maybe.

If the MAF transfer function is 100% accurate from 0-5V and moving your boost level to 18PSI does not peg the meter then yes the PCM will add the appropriate fuel mass to reach the target lambda value.

That being said you would want to do some work in your base timing tables to reflect the added boost.
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Old 03-03-2010, 04:52 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by tbirdscwd View Post
And BTW, it is very possible to pass smog in CA with aftermarket cams and if you have tuning software that allows you complete control of your computer's parameters, functions, and tables, you can write a tune that will allow pretty much anything to pass a sniff test.
Understood, however 3 years ago I wasn't at the same skill level that I am now. Also leaving the cams alone allowed me to leave all of the injector timing and some other tables alone which made life easier.

The car no longer has catalytic converters so passing a CA emissions test would be impossible. Like I said in the future the cams will be changed as the car is a track only vehicle at this point.
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Old 03-03-2010, 04:54 PM   #50
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Is there an equation to convert the inovative lc-1's a/f ratio to a lambda reading?
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Old 03-03-2010, 04:54 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by tbirdscwd View Post
Freeing up the path of the air doesn't necessarily mean that you are increasing the actual volume of air flowing through the engine.
Absolutely, this is THE most prevelant misconception about CAIs and other pre-TB mods--in fact they largely do nothing as the OEM pre-TB intake is pretty damned good.

Quote:
That blower with a certain diameter pulley is pushing a specific amount of air into that engine's combustion chambers. Changing the cams doesn't increase the amount of air that the blower is pushing. It would drop the pressure of that air by reducing a flow restriction, but the number should remain roughly the same.
Actually improving the flow, via longer duration or higher lift cams, in an f/i setup, increases the charge pressure as there is less pressure drop in the flow path--perhaps that's what you meant by "It would drop the pressure [drop]". The blower can push whatever it likes, but the engine can only take in what the intake valve duration and lift allow to pass. The rest remains in the intake manifold.

Quote:
Steve, I know that those heads outflow the stock PI heads and even ported PI heads, but you'd be surprized how much more vital longer duration and higher lift cams are to performance than the head itself. Stock PI heads with aftermarket cams have made over 600rwhp. As far as I know, that cannot be said the other way around.
There are many ways to improve VE...
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Old 03-03-2010, 05:00 PM   #52
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Is there an equation to convert the inovative lc-1's a/f ratio to a lambda reading?
You do not have to work in terms of Lambda if you don't want to. A/F ratio works just fine. I don't know of the equation of the top of my head but there is one out there.

Time for me to go home.

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Old 03-03-2010, 05:21 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Chris98Gt View Post
Is there an equation to convert the inovative lc-1's a/f ratio to a lambda reading?
Sure, for their's or anyone else's, AFR(gasoline) / 14.7 = λ (lambda).

Ex:
15.7 AFR = 15.7 / 14.7 = λ1.068
14.7 AFR = 14.7 / 14.7 = λ1.000
13.7 AFR = 13.7 / 14.7 = λ0.932\

This is only true for gasoline however, stoichiometric lambda is alway 1.0 but stoichiometric AFR varies according to fuel, other fuels have other stoichiometric AFRs...
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Old 03-03-2010, 05:30 PM   #54
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Absolutely, this is THE most prevelant misconception about CAIs and other pre-TB mods--in fact they largely do nothing as the OEM pre-TB intake is pretty damned good.



Actually improving the flow, via longer duration or higher lift cams, in an f/i setup, increases the charge pressure as there is less pressure drop in the flow path--perhaps that's what you meant by "It would drop the pressure [drop]". The blower can push whatever it likes, but the engine can only take in what the intake valve duration and lift allow to pass. The rest remains in the intake manifold.
.
That's exactly what I meant. The pressure drop would be evident in the flow path of the air entering the engine, not the combustion chamber. There would be more air allowed into the combustion chambers with a higher lift/longer duration cam. This accomplishes a few different things:

1. increases the VE
2. decreases the intake charge temp.
2. decreases "parasitic loss" in the sense that the more physical pressure the blower is creating, the more power it is using being spun by the engine.


I am a little confused as to what you guys are discussing. The values in your MAF transfer rate do not determine when your MAF pegs. You can edit and adjust all these values. As long as the MAF does not reach it's maximum of 5v before the max rpm is hit, then I don't see a problem. Just because your transfer rate shows say 1775kg/hr as the 5v value, doesn't mean you can't increase that number. That's the whole point of tuning using the MAF transfer rate
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Old 03-03-2010, 05:39 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by tbirdscwd View Post
That's exactly what I meant. The pressure drop would be evident in the flow path of the air entering the engine, not the combustion chamber. There would be more air allowed into the combustion chambers with a higher lift/longer duration cam. This accomplishes a few different things:

1. increases the VE
2. decreases the intake charge temp.
2. decreases "parasitic loss" in the sense that the more physical pressure the blower is creating, the more power it is using being spun by the engine.


I am a little confused as to what you guys are discussing. The values in your MAF transfer rate do not determine when your MAF pegs. You can edit and adjust all these values. As long as the MAF does not reach it's maximum of 5v before the max rpm is hit, then I don't see a problem. Just because your transfer rate shows say 1775kg/hr as the 5v value, doesn't mean you can't increase that number. That's the whole point of tuning using the MAF transfer rate
As I said earlier, we are coming at this in a sort of backwards fashion--using the mass air flow at "pegging" (5.0V out) to calculate maximum HP supported by a given sensor/housing combination.

The most discussed combination has been the VMP 75mm housing and the PMAS HTX (did I get that right?) sensor. According to VMP's worksheet (see previous messages) that combination pegs at 2650lb/h. Their worksheet then states that the combination can support 643HP--we don't know if this is rw or fw, they don't say--nonetheless it is BS as there is no way 2650lb/h mass air flow can support 643HP (rw or fw) on a gasoline powered engine.

It is somewhat difficult to explain what we are discussing, does this make sense?
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Old 03-03-2010, 06:00 PM   #56
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Sure, for their's or anyone else's, AFR(gasoline) / 14.7 = λ (lambda).

Ex:
15.7 AFR = 15.7 / 14.7 = λ1.068
14.7 AFR = 14.7 / 14.7 = λ1.000
13.7 AFR = 13.7 / 14.7 = λ0.932\

This is only true for gasoline however, stoichiometric lambda is alway 1.0 but stoichiometric AFR varies according to fuel, other fuels have other stoichiometric AFRs...

DOH! I thought he was asking for the voltage equation to plug into livelink.

One thing that should be noted when tuning any motor is the amount of ethanol in pump gasoline. If you plan to run 10% ethanol your new stoichiometric burn point is 14.2:1. Personally when I used to run any gas containing ethanol I would load a tune with the stoichiometric air to fuel scalar set to 14.2. As long as your base fuel table is accurate and your transfer function is spot on this is really the only necessary change to make when switching fuel blends.
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Old 03-03-2010, 06:12 PM   #57
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I understand that you guys are discussing how much power a given combo of MAF sensor/Housing will support. I looked at the chart. Nowhere on there does it say that the MAF/Housing combination will peg at the flow rate you are discussing though. Haney has even stated that it is not pegged at 2650. If the Maf/Housing combo did in fact peg at that rate, I could understand the dilemma.
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Old 03-03-2010, 06:24 PM   #58
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I understand that you guys are discussing how much power a given combo of MAF sensor/Housing will support. I looked at the chart. Nowhere on there does it say that the MAF/Housing combination will peg at the flow rate you are discussing though. Haney has even stated that it is not pegged at 2650. If the Maf/Housing combo did in fact peg at that rate, I could understand the dilemma.
Huh? Where do you get that from?

The worksheet provided by VMP clearly shows that with a 3" (75mm) tube the PMAS HPX (or whatever, I've sort of blocked this whole thing out) sensor "pegs", or has a 5.0V output, at 2650lb/h.

Click the image to open in full size.

You can tell the transfer function, and by extension the PCM, whatever you want, and scale other things accordingly to make the engine run, however the actual mass air flow through the MAF will be whatever the real numbers say.

I.e. if the worksheet above is accurate then when output is 5.0V there will be 2650lb/h of air flowing through the 3" tube...
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Old 03-03-2010, 06:29 PM   #59
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That's exactly what I meant. The pressure drop would be evident in the flow path of the air entering the engine, not the combustion chamber. There would be more air allowed into the combustion chambers with a higher lift/longer duration cam. This accomplishes a few different things:

1. increases the VE
2. decreases the intake charge temp.
2. decreases "parasitic loss" in the sense that the more physical pressure the blower is creating, the more power it is using being spun by the engine.


I am a little confused as to what you guys are discussing. The values in your MAF transfer rate do not determine when your MAF pegs. You can edit and adjust all these values. As long as the MAF does not reach it's maximum of 5v before the max rpm is hit, then I don't see a problem. Just because your transfer rate shows say 1775kg/hr as the 5v value, doesn't mean you can't increase that number. That's the whole point of tuning using the MAF transfer rate
You can not increase the number doing so would command more fuel as the PCM would assume it was getting more air when in fact it was not. The only thing you can extend the range of the MAF is to put the sensor in a larger diameter tube, or use a MAFIA.
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Old 03-03-2010, 06:34 PM   #60
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I get what you're saying. Now that my head was removed from my ***, I now see that I am looking at this from the wrong way. I am looking at it from a commanding more fuel standpoint not a widening of the range of the MAF. My apoligies, it is really easy to get confused about this stuff.
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Old 03-03-2010, 06:34 PM
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