Delta Force tuning software ?'s
03-02-2010, 11:43 PM
#31
Banned
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Goodyear, AZ
Posts: 1,631
The stock S197 MAF housing/air box top is 80mm. "Direct replacement for 05-up" I believe means it is the same as factory (as far as physical diamentions)
Your 98 pcm is not hard limited on air mass #s. As stated, 02-04 EEC5 are.
The HPX spreadsheet will give you a rough baseline function to start with. It will need to be globally adjusted!
The tube is designed really for blow through set ups, not draw through. Blow through works very well with turbo and centri s/c set ups. You do not need a "larger than average" i.d. for blow through.
I have used/tuned with the HPX and Justin's 3" tube. This was on an 06 3V with an exile twin turbo kit....blow through. The car had drive-ability issues, slightly rough and hunting idle and light load cruise. The MAF (stock one) was giving a crappy signal. The problem was the kit's intake/intercooler tubing. The cf elbow/MAF housing diameter increases in size and two 90 degree bends right before the sensor, which is not good for smooth air flow over the sensor. Anyhow, I removed one of the 90's, added the 3" tube, new elbow (vortech) and re-tuned the car. If memory is correct, I had to adjust the transfer function around 23% from the baseline!
Bottom line, you will need the Commando to tune it correctly. This really goes for any other MAF used....SCT BA****, Bazooka or HPX.
Casey
Your 98 pcm is not hard limited on air mass #s. As stated, 02-04 EEC5 are.
The HPX spreadsheet will give you a rough baseline function to start with. It will need to be globally adjusted!
The tube is designed really for blow through set ups, not draw through. Blow through works very well with turbo and centri s/c set ups. You do not need a "larger than average" i.d. for blow through.
I have used/tuned with the HPX and Justin's 3" tube. This was on an 06 3V with an exile twin turbo kit....blow through. The car had drive-ability issues, slightly rough and hunting idle and light load cruise. The MAF (stock one) was giving a crappy signal. The problem was the kit's intake/intercooler tubing. The cf elbow/MAF housing diameter increases in size and two 90 degree bends right before the sensor, which is not good for smooth air flow over the sensor. Anyhow, I removed one of the 90's, added the 3" tube, new elbow (vortech) and re-tuned the car. If memory is correct, I had to adjust the transfer function around 23% from the baseline!
Bottom line, you will need the Commando to tune it correctly. This really goes for any other MAF used....SCT BA****, Bazooka or HPX.
Casey
03-02-2010, 11:49 PM
#32
TECH SAVANT
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Saint Augustine, FL
Posts: 10,938
The stock S197 MAF housing/air box top is 80mm. "Direct replacement for 05-up" I believe means it is the same as factory (as far as physical diamentions)
Your 98 pcm is not hard limited on air mass #s. As stated, 02-04 EEC5 are.
The HPX spreadsheet will give you a rough baseline function to start with. It will need to be globally adjusted!
The tube is designed really for blow through set ups, not draw through. Blow through works very well with turbo and centri s/c set ups. You do not need a "larger than average" i.d. for blow through.
I have used/tuned with the HPX and Justin's 3" tube. This was on an 06 3V with an exile twin turbo kit....blow through. The car had drive-ability issues, slightly rough and hunting idle and light load cruise. The MAF (stock one) was giving a crappy signal. The problem was the kit's intake/intercooler tubing. The cf elbow/MAF housing diameter increases in size and two 90 degree bends right before the sensor, which is not good for smooth air flow over the sensor. Anyhow, I removed one of the 90's, added the 3" tube, new elbow (vortech) and re-tuned the car. If memory is correct, I had to adjust the transfer function around 23% from the baseline!
Bottom line, you will need the Commando to tune it correctly. This really goes for any other MAF used....SCT BA****, Bazooka or HPX.
Casey
Your 98 pcm is not hard limited on air mass #s. As stated, 02-04 EEC5 are.
The HPX spreadsheet will give you a rough baseline function to start with. It will need to be globally adjusted!
The tube is designed really for blow through set ups, not draw through. Blow through works very well with turbo and centri s/c set ups. You do not need a "larger than average" i.d. for blow through.
I have used/tuned with the HPX and Justin's 3" tube. This was on an 06 3V with an exile twin turbo kit....blow through. The car had drive-ability issues, slightly rough and hunting idle and light load cruise. The MAF (stock one) was giving a crappy signal. The problem was the kit's intake/intercooler tubing. The cf elbow/MAF housing diameter increases in size and two 90 degree bends right before the sensor, which is not good for smooth air flow over the sensor. Anyhow, I removed one of the 90's, added the 3" tube, new elbow (vortech) and re-tuned the car. If memory is correct, I had to adjust the transfer function around 23% from the baseline!
Bottom line, you will need the Commando to tune it correctly. This really goes for any other MAF used....SCT BA****, Bazooka or HPX.
Casey
Thank you for addding some emprical reality, I have no experience with turbos (exhaust or "belt driven"--don't like 'em as I said) I am glad you jumped in...
-cliff-
03-03-2010, 05:33 AM
#33
3rd Gear Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Georgia
Posts: 931
Ok, so if I added 23% to the 3" tube diameter, making it a 3.7", and took those values is that the same as when you say you adjusted the function 23%? If so, that seems easy enough to play with to get it just right. Thanks again guys for the help.
03-03-2010, 11:51 AM
#34
3rd Gear Member
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 912
One thing to note, the SCT MAF units are all contained in the same size housing but have the ability to measure different quantities of air. Perhaps this sensor is a "05+ slot" style sensor that has the ability to measure larger quantities of air much like the SCT units.
03-03-2010, 12:10 PM
#35
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Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Saint Augustine, FL
Posts: 10,938
One thing to note, the SCT MAF units are all contained in the same size housing but have the ability to measure different quantities of air. Perhaps this sensor is a "05+ slot" style sensor that has the ability to measure larger quantities of air much like the SCT units.
The sensor's electronics can be easily built, or tweaked, to alter the relationship between the current required to keep the hot wire at a set temperature, and the output voltage.
Altering of the amplitude and curve of the output is how most "calibrated" MAFs work...
03-03-2010, 12:18 PM
#36
3rd Gear Member
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 912
It may well be, however according to the worksheet on the VMP site the PMAS HPX sensor under discussion, in a 3" tube. pegs at 2650lb/h. 400lb/h or so less than my stock '03 GT 80mm unit.
The sensor's electronics can be easily built, or tweaked, to alter the relationship between the current required to keep the hot wire at a set temperature, and the output voltage.
Altering of the amplitude and curve of the output is how most "calibrated" MAFs work...
The sensor's electronics can be easily built, or tweaked, to alter the relationship between the current required to keep the hot wire at a set temperature, and the output voltage.
Altering of the amplitude and curve of the output is how most "calibrated" MAFs work...
Something doesn't add up...
03-03-2010, 01:16 PM
#37
5th Gear Member
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: CA
Posts: 4,039
Well, I'm hoping by the rest of your setup that those "PI cams" listed in your sig aren't Stock cam grinds. That could very well be making up the difference in power you are noting.
03-03-2010, 01:45 PM
#38
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Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Saint Augustine, FL
Posts: 10,938
Are you up around 55 to 65 lb/m, that's what I would expect?
I hacked their worksheet just now:
The A and B columns hold a lookup table of the output voltage vs. an airflow constant for the sensor. The constant is derived from a 9th order polynomial equation, which is:
Code:
-9.475184+59.921788 *A11-135.60886 *A11^2+166.77782 *A11^3-111.50394 *A11^4+44.218751 *A11^5-10.131798 *A11^6+1.2482716 *A11^7-0.065666262 *A11^8+0.00029343852 *A11^9
The potential horsepower value is calculated as the 5.0V airflow divided by 1750, and then multiplied by 425--I.e. =E40/1750*425, or =J40/1750*425.
This formula then is asserting that 1750lb/h of air can support 425fwHP.
But, 1750lb/h of air cannot support 425HP (280 to 300 tops)...
However after throwing a whole bunch of fudge at this, and seeing what would stick, I came up with this:
1750kg/h * 2.2 = 3858lb/h;
3858lb/h of air at 12:1 AFR = 321lb/h of fuel;
321lb/h of fuel, at 0.6 BSFC (typical for f/i) = 536fwHP;
536fwHP - 20% loss from peripherals and drivetrain = 428rwHP...
Now as I said there's a whoile bunch of speculation in this, however the assumptions (12:1 AFR, and 20% parasitic/drivetrain loss) are in the right ball park.
--------------------------------------------------
Steve,
Too bad you are there and I am here, I suspect we would have a lot to talk about while tossing back a few pints!
Last edited by cliffyk; 03-03-2010 at 01:48 PM.
03-03-2010, 01:58 PM
#39
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However in this diuscussion we are going about things sort of backwards and discussing how much HP a given mass of air per time unit can support, not what the effects of increasing that amount of air would be...
03-03-2010, 02:16 PM
#40
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Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Goodyear, AZ
Posts: 1,631
Cliff- No problem! I am happy to help/educate with what I know and have experienced.
As Cliff and others have said, buy Greg's books (2 now). These are a must read for anyone getting into self tuning, especially boosted applications. I have also taken his Ford class, which was great. Advanced Ford and GM classes coming soon!
You cannot do it that way (add 23% to tube i.d.) That is not going to give you the correct function. Each and every engine set up is going to require it's own calibration. You need to set lambda in the tune, run the car at steady state for each break point, record real lambda readings via wide band, then adjust the difference in the function.
The HPX is not maxed...5v @ 2650 flow # given. As I stated before, this is just a rough curve. If you take my 23% adjustment ( more air mass), the new 5v would be 3441.***.
As Cliff and others have said, buy Greg's books (2 now). These are a must read for anyone getting into self tuning, especially boosted applications. I have also taken his Ford class, which was great. Advanced Ford and GM classes coming soon!
You cannot do it that way (add 23% to tube i.d.) That is not going to give you the correct function. Each and every engine set up is going to require it's own calibration. You need to set lambda in the tune, run the car at steady state for each break point, record real lambda readings via wide band, then adjust the difference in the function.
The HPX is not maxed...5v @ 2650 flow # given. As I stated before, this is just a rough curve. If you take my 23% adjustment ( more air mass), the new 5v would be 3441.***.