Go Back   MustangForums.com > Ford Mustang Tech > 4.6L (1996-2004 Modular) Mustang > 4.6L General Discussion
Sign in using an external account
Register Forgot Password?
Search


4.6L General Discussion This section is for non-tech specific information pertaining to 4.6L (Modular) Mustangs built from 1996 to 2004.

Welcome to Mustang Forums!
Welcome to Mustang Forums.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, at no cost, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!


School me on suspension..

Reply
 
 
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 01-31-2009, 04:53 PM   #1
jvog
5th Gear Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Vehicle: 2002 Mustang GT
Location: PA
Posts: 2,825
Default School me on suspension..

Ok so instead of buying a shortblock I am going to work on puting my power I have to the ground. I was thinking kyb agx shocks and struts and summit uppers and lowers...but what do you guys think..Maybe coil overs?
This ad is not displayed to registered or logged-in members.
Register your free account today and become a member on Mustang Forums!
__________________
jvog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2009, 05:01 PM   #2
Aereon
5th Gear Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Vehicle: 03
Location: SF Bay.
Posts: 3,035
Send a message via AIM to Aereon
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jvog View Post
Ok so instead of buying a shortblock I am going to work on puting my power I have to the ground. I was thinking kyb agx shocks and struts and summit uppers and lowers...but what do you guys think..Maybe coil overs?
What are your goals? Coilovers are nice but if you just want to lower the car I'd recommend some supersports w/ tokico d specs (fox body), or a set of steeda sports with the stock shocks/struts on a budget.

Upper control arms are a no no, don't touch them unless your replacing it with rubber bushings. A stiffer LCA would help a ton with wheel hop, with a MM or Griggs LCA, you should be able to remove the quad shocks.

http://miracerros.com/mustang/index.htm <-- good info on mustangs, very knowledgeable and it's corner-carver.com approved.
Corner-Carvers.com (don't post here unless you have a question that hasn't been asked or unless you have something with scientific backing, most people here are actual professional racers/product developers/physicists and will eat you alive if you provide misinformation)

Excellent vendors with lots of great track experience.
Stangsuspension.com
MaximumMotorsports.com
GriggsRacing.com
http://www.maierracing.com/
http://www.evolutionmsport.com/index.php

With the exception of stangsuspension (due to the lucrative nature of selling UCA) notice how none of them sell their own miracle/poly urethane/delrin bushing UCA's?



Here is an excerpt from one of the first Griggs/Suspension articles I've read

Quote:
griggs....


So what are the issues working against you in the Fox and SN95 chassis Mustang? For starters, the unibody structure is lightly built, with insufficient rigidity. High torque and cornering loads deform the structure, causing the suspension to lose precision, doubly so with convertibles. Welding in reinforcing structure is the cure.


Knowing where to reinforce the structure is important, as indiscriminately adding braces wastes money and adds weight without gaining meaningful increases in rigidity. By twisting a Mustang unibody on a frame table, we learned the main problem is in the middle of the car. Ford counts heavily on the rocker panels as the primary structure between the firewall and rear wheelhouses, especially with the '79-'04 cars. This lets the front and rear axle forces to twist the car far too easily.

A dual-plane brace to provide triangulation of the floor pan is required; we do this with our Full Frame Kit. The mid-car twist also explains why we don't offer g-load and strut tower braces. By strengthening one end of the car they actually increase the mid-car twist.

An even larger concern is found in the rear suspension. Ford uses a 4-link design, but with the upper two control arms angled heavily outward. This means the lower and upper rear control arms are not parallel, so as the suspension moves the upper arms are twisted in their bushings. During performance driving this quickly leads to a near total binding of the rear suspension, called roll bind. With the axle bound, it acts like a giant anti-sway bar, causing the rear roll stiffness to skyrocket and the overloaded rear tires to loose traction and spin. This is why the rear end snaps into uncontrollable fishtailing when cornering, and it is also why the rear tires break loose at the drag strip once the body starts rising from the initial power hit.

Ford addresses the roll bind by fitting the upper arms with very soft bushings, a sloppy fix, to say the least. Our cure is to fit a torque arm and either a Panhard bar or Watts link to provide the necessary axle location, then remove the stock upper arms. Roll bind is then impossible, and the tires freely follow the pavement. Additionally, the rear roll center is now defined by the Panhard bar or Watts link instead of the upper control arm angle as Ford had it. Stock the Mustang's rear roll center is far too high, which overloads the outside rear tire and causes oversteer. By lowering the rear roll center with the Panhard bar or Watts link we get the rear tires to carry more of the load so the rear end will stick longer.

More compromised geometry is found in the front suspension, a point made abundantly clear when driving a car with the rear suspension fixed and the front suspension stock. Ford built the Mustang with generous steering axis (king pin) inclination, which requires equal amounts of caster to keep the tires flat to the ground when turned. Unfortunately, Ford gave the Mustang only minimal caster, a condition we reverse with caster plates and redesigned K-member.

Also at the front, Ford's tall ride height comes into play. Lowering the entire car benefits the center of gravity, but causes the front suspension geometry to lower the front roll center well below ground level. Combined with the tall rear roll center, this results in a roll couple (the relationship between the front and rear roll stiffness, of which roll centers play a part), to heavily load the front tires. Imagine trying to drive your Mustang around a corner with the front end squashed below ground level and the rear end raised a yard or so in the air; obviously the car would be trying to turn using just its front tires. That's about what the stock suspension tries to do. Lowering the rear roll center with the Panhard bar or Watts link helps this condition, of course, but we also raise the front roll center, accomplished by relocating the points where the front suspension attaches to the chassis. Moving the suspension pickup points is done by redesigning the K-member, which is the crossmember the front suspension attaches to. Redesigning the K-member also allows us to add more anti-dive to the front suspension help correct the lack of caster.

Ackermann is also a concern on stock Mustangs. Ackermann is the steering geometry that steers the inside front tire more than the outside tire, a necessary condition as the inside tire follows a smaller diameter turn radius. With the Mustang, Ford actually ended up providing reverse Ackermann, meaning the front tires toe-in slightly when turned. We also cure this with our K-member.
__________________


Big corral, very few horses.

Member of Team IRS-GT #0 ^^

The bucket is up for sale.

Last edited by Aereon; 01-31-2009 at 05:28 PM.
Aereon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2009, 05:14 PM   #3
WhiteFoxGT
Resident Ford Troll
 
WhiteFoxGT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Vehicle: 98 Cobra
Location: Delaware
Posts: 5,986
Default

Well before we go talking setups and whatnot, do you want to be lowered and stiff, or do you actually wanna go fast and sacrifice handling?
WhiteFoxGT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2009, 05:16 PM   #4
tdcalhoun89
4th Gear Member
 
tdcalhoun89's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Vehicle: 2004 Toyota Tacoma TRD
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 1,972
Frank_Drebin1
Default

I've got tokico d specs, they make a HUGE difference. I was going to do coil overs as well, but with my body kit I didn't want to scrap going out of my drive way.
__________________


2004 Mustang GT - Sold
2004 TRD Tacoma
tdcalhoun89 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2009, 05:16 PM   #5
Aereon
5th Gear Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Vehicle: 03
Location: SF Bay.
Posts: 3,035
Send a message via AIM to Aereon
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteFoxGT View Post
Well before we go talking setups and whatnot, do you want to be lowered and stiff, or do you actually wanna go fast and sacrifice handling?
Lowered doesn't always = stiff, my car is lower than most and many have said my car rides smoother, it's all in setup. Going fast while sacrificing handling is the main reason why mustangs are so expensive to insure (too many idiots think the car is greater than it is).

But yes, I'd like to know you're budget and goals for the car as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdcalhoun89 View Post
I've got tokico d specs, they make a HUGE difference. I was going to do coil overs as well, but with my body kit I didn't want to scrap going out of my drive way.
I have coilovers, they are night and day difference over the modified macphearson setup. I have no real issues with scraping and they actually make more sense when it comes to scraping worries. I have a spanner wrench that I can adjust the height of the car without lifting it, although it is never recommended. The major downfall for coilovers is that in order to install/align/adjust them correctly, you need to have the car corner weighted while its adjusted.

---

Forgot to mention in the other post, one of the first things anyone should do to their mustangs suspension/handling is to install a set of full length sub frame connectors, either a MM or Griggs unit is recommended, Maier Racing custom fabs one for you if you can get to them. The thing you need to be the most careful of when you get the subframes welded on is to make sure you take it to an experienced welder and that the car is on a drive on lift (suspension loaded)
__________________


Big corral, very few horses.

Member of Team IRS-GT #0 ^^

The bucket is up for sale.

Last edited by Aereon; 01-31-2009 at 05:25 PM.
Aereon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2009, 08:46 PM   #6
jvog
5th Gear Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Vehicle: 2002 Mustang GT
Location: PA
Posts: 2,825
Default

So most people only get LCAs? I don't want to get springs. Is there a way to make it cut good 60s at the track yet still have decent handling or is it just one or the other lol..
__________________
jvog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2009, 09:47 PM   #7
jvog
5th Gear Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Vehicle: 2002 Mustang GT
Location: PA
Posts: 2,825
Default

Is there anything wrong with getting the cheaper J&M subframe connectors from AM?
__________________
jvog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2009, 10:27 PM   #8
teej281
4.6L Section Moderator
 
teej281's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Vehicle: 2002 Mustang GT Convertible
Location: South Central PA
Posts: 10,280
TJ Brillhart
Default

If you want good 60's and can still handle...get adjustable shocks and struts. I have Strange 10 ways and they are awesome. I can go from handling to drag racing in a minute flat. they work wonders!!!
__________________





Member of Team IRS-GT #2

Quote:
Originally Posted by PurpleIcedGT View Post
Saying there is a 1whp difference between the X and H and trying to justify it as a performance difference, is like walking 100 feet to your car and eating a cheeseburger while saying its fine because you just did "cardio".
teej281 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2009, 12:14 AM   #9
Aereon
5th Gear Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Vehicle: 03
Location: SF Bay.
Posts: 3,035
Send a message via AIM to Aereon
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jvog View Post
So most people only get LCAs? I don't want to get springs. Is there a way to make it cut good 60s at the track yet still have decent handling or is it just one or the other lol..
No, most people make the mistake of buying UCA/LCA's then they complain about ripped torque boxes and such. If you're looking for both a decent handling + good traction out of the hole you're gonna wanna get rid of the stock 4 link setup and go with either a panhard bar, torque arm, heavy duty LCA setup, evm tri link, watts link setup, or a mixture of them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jvog View Post
Is there anything wrong with getting the cheaper J&M subframe connectors from AM?
Really, I would not recommend it, the main reason is because I have had no experience and cannot vouch for fitment. For full length sub frame connectors, you need them to line up perfectly with the chassis before its welded. If there are any discrepancies that cause the welder to push or bend the sfc's in order to install them, the car will bend to fit the contours of the sfc's and not the other way around. It's because of this that I recommend MM, Griggs, or Maier. I have never heard of any problems with any of their sub frames. With suspension setups, the phrase "you get what you pay for" holds very true, there can be good deals to be had with used items, but the reason why MM and griggs charge so much for their products is due to the research and development involved. Companies like granatelli that simply copy and outsource their parts to China to lower prices have no place on a properly built car. They skimp on production, skimp on research and development, what makes you think they won't skimp on raw materials?

Quote:
Originally Posted by teej281 View Post
If you want good 60's and can still handle...get adjustable shocks and struts. I have Strange 10 ways and they are awesome. I can go from handling to drag racing in a minute flat. they work wonders!!!
Strange 10 ways are great for a budget setup, but they do have an issue with noise and issues with valving (cause of noise) I would save the pennies and do things right the first time, spend your time researching, calling companies, questioning all the hype they spew and then decide whats best.


OP: what is your budget?
__________________


Big corral, very few horses.

Member of Team IRS-GT #0 ^^

The bucket is up for sale.
Aereon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2009, 12:36 AM   #10
jvog
5th Gear Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Vehicle: 2002 Mustang GT
Location: PA
Posts: 2,825
Default

Heres my list

Chrome Moly or QA1 k member kit
Maximum Rear Coil Over kit
UPR Radius Rod Upper Control Arm and Spherical Bushing Kit
Chrome Moly LCA
CE 3 way shocks
Not sure what struts yet
4 bolt CC plates
__________________
jvog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2009, 12:44 AM   #11
dimebag
6th Gear Member
 
dimebag's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Vehicle: 02 gt
Location: earleville md
Posts: 10,355
Send a message via AIM to dimebag Send a message via Yahoo to dimebag
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aereon View Post
allthat****usaid
ok yea,

1. uppers arent a waste, they dont automatically **** tq boxes up.
2. your going to have to pick one, handling, or 60fts... both are able to be done cheap

wanna go fast in a straight line? we can do it for cheap... let me know
__________________

1.6 60fts
12.0 at 112(100 shot)(shutting down at 1000ft)
13.1 at 104(n/a)
dimebag is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2009, 12:47 AM   #12
fausty
4th Gear Member
 
fausty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Vehicle: 2001 Mustang Gt
Location: Miami ,FL
Posts: 1,425
Default

Great info in this thread.Please keep it coming...
__________________

01 Mustang Gt 5spd/ -Flowmaster 40 series catback - o/r H- k&n -svt fuel pump-Nitto 555 D/R -kyb shocks-4 cyl springs upfront-cut gt springs rear-

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fink View Post
my moms **** is better than my GF. Its easier to clean up and doesnt stink as bad after a few days.
fausty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2009, 12:54 AM   #13
Aereon
5th Gear Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Vehicle: 03
Location: SF Bay.
Posts: 3,035
Send a message via AIM to Aereon
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jvog View Post
Heres my list

Chrome Moly or QA1 k member kit NO!
Maximum Rear Coil Over kitReasoning for the rears only?
UPR Radius Rod Upper Control Arm and Spherical Bushing Kit Re-Read above posts
Chrome Moly LCANO!
CE 3 way shocks Is this the same as a quad shock (never heard of it)
Not sure what struts yet
4 bolt CC platesMM Plates
Ok.. Chrome-Moly is very light weight, it weighs as little as it does due to the brittle nature of its construct. It works on UPR's cars because they are mainly straight line builds but if you take that and try to put it through the stresses of a spirited drive through some twisties, you could be in for a bit of fun.

Either way, it seems like a bit of the info posted wasn't read so, your money, spend it as you wish. Last bit of advice, do a little more research into the construct of the parts and the reason they are made and you will find reasons not to buy some of those parts on your list. By research, I mean to actually google chrome moly and see what it is, go read about bind studies done on the stock 4 link and why any aftermarket UCA with stiffer bushings are a bad idea and not go by what is posted on the sellers site. Millions of people get taken for a fool by turbonators because they only go by what the seller sells/tells them.
__________________


Big corral, very few horses.

Member of Team IRS-GT #0 ^^

The bucket is up for sale.
Aereon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2009, 12:59 AM   #14
Aereon
5th Gear Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Vehicle: 03
Location: SF Bay.
Posts: 3,035
Send a message via AIM to Aereon
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dimebag View Post
ok yea,

1. uppers arent a waste, they dont automatically **** tq boxes up.
2. your going to have to pick one, handling, or 60fts... both are able to be done cheap

wanna go fast in a straight line? we can do it for cheap... let me know
Never once did I say it will automatically do it. But if you think about it where is all that stress coming from that causes the torque boxes to rip? Stock UCA's have very forgiving rubber bushings that will cause UCA to contort in its mount, when you stick a solid bushing in there whats gonna give?

2) Making a car good at one thing and not at another is great if its a dedicated race car, but the OP asked for a DD setup as well.

Either way, I'm out before I get dragged into an argument that wont go anywhere, it's happend too many times in the past.

Same advice as before you can go the cheap/quick/easy way and spend money on replacing things that break or do things right the first time and actually research/spend money where it needs to be spent and have confidence that your car will hold up.
__________________


Big corral, very few horses.

Member of Team IRS-GT #0 ^^

The bucket is up for sale.
Aereon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2009, 01:30 AM   #15
jvog
5th Gear Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Vehicle: 2002 Mustang GT
Location: PA
Posts: 2,825
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aereon View Post
Ok.. Chrome-Moly is very light weight, it weighs as little as it does due to the brittle nature of its construct. It works on UPR's cars because they are mainly straight line builds but if you take that and try to put it through the stresses of a spirited drive through some twisties, you could be in for a bit of fun.

Either way, it seems like a bit of the info posted wasn't read so, your money, spend it as you wish. Last bit of advice, do a little more research into the construct of the parts and the reason they are made and you will find reasons not to buy some of those parts on your list. By research, I mean to actually google chrome moly and see what it is, go read about bind studies done on the stock 4 link and why any aftermarket UCA with stiffer bushings are a bad idea and not go by what is posted on the sellers site. Millions of people get taken for a fool by turbonators because they only go by what the seller sells/tells them.
The front coil overs are in the K member kit. Than Ill go with the regular QA1 k member kit if chrome moly is really that bad. THe QA1 kit is cheaper anyway. CE is Competition Engineering..never heard of it? I appreciate your advice...

and Dime, I know we can do it for cheap but I also want to do it right. Did you you use rubber bushing when you did your uppers?
__________________
jvog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2009, 02:08 AM   #16
WhiteFoxGT
Resident Ford Troll
 
WhiteFoxGT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Vehicle: 98 Cobra
Location: Delaware
Posts: 5,986
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jvog View Post
The front coil overs are in the K member kit. Than Ill go with the regular QA1 k member kit if chrome moly is really that bad. THe QA1 kit is cheaper anyway. CE is Competition Engineering..never heard of it? I appreciate your advice...

and Dime, I know we can do it for cheap but I also want to do it right. Did you you use rubber bushing when you did your uppers?

He used the bushings that come with the control arms (poly)

And by cheap, it isnt wrong. Aereon is telling you go buy from 2 of the most expensive places, when you dont need to spend 100$s of dollars extra for the name. Summit, UPR, etc... are just as good for a better price. Coil overs on the front is a good idea, but we are talkin about rear suspension at the moment werent we? Click the image to open in full size.
WhiteFoxGT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2009, 08:17 AM   #17
livefast1
5th Gear Member
 
livefast1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location:
Posts: 2,363
Default

i have adjustable solid upper control arms with urethane bushings on the diff side (would like to get some solids from upr there 2). completely solid lowers with drop brackets (like a custom made lakewood traction bar). i have no problem ripping torque boxes out, thats why i installed the battle boxes.
__________________

6.0 shortblock with arp rod bolts, cnc'd/milled 806's, 238/242 112lsa cam, victor jr. manifold, holley 750 dp on the stand waiting.
livefast1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2009, 08:32 AM   #18
mustangman281
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: tn
Posts: 0
Default

If you want to do it right and for the best cost buy:

UPR front kmember/coilover kit
UPR adjustable uppers
UPR spherical upper bushings
Megabite jr, ford racing or comp engineering lower control arms (they all relocate the axle mount and actually improve traction unlike the others)
UPR rear coilovers
Which ever shocks/struts you decide to go with try to get adjustable ones.

I don't have any of the above list on my car except for the megabite jrs but I just recently installed all of the above on my friends car and I am really impressed with the quality and performance.
mustangman281 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2009, 08:37 AM   #19
Aereon
5th Gear Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Vehicle: 03
Location: SF Bay.
Posts: 3,035
Send a message via AIM to Aereon
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteFoxGT View Post
He used the bushings that come with the control arms (poly)

And by cheap, it isnt wrong. Aereon is telling you go buy from 2 of the most expensive places, when you dont need to spend 100$s of dollars extra for the name. Summit, UPR, etc... are just as good for a better price. Coil overs on the front is a good idea, but we are talkin about rear suspension at the moment werent we? Click the image to open in full size.
I would appreciate not having words put in my mouth, not once did I say buy from XYZ, I provided reasons as to why I recommend them, ultimately its up to the OP. He asked for info and thats what I gave, backed by auto x proven leaders. If you believe that UPR and summitracing parts can hold its weight vs MM and griggs then you are sadly mistaken. Like I said in a previous post, the reason why they are more expensive is because they actually spend money on something called R&D and then they actually worry about parts that can last the brutal g's that continuous autox days put the parts through.

As for the UCA's, go take a look at how they are angled and think about what happends as the rear axle acts as it goes over bumps/turns/squats. It doesn't take a college diploma to tell ya that theres gonna need to be some give in the UCA's to allow for the axles movements. Anyways forget everything I've posted as they go against the status quo of catalog shoppers, good luck man, have fun and last bit of advice is to tighten that nut behind the wheel as well as you can and you'll be fine. If you do find anything I've said at any bit interesting then I suggest you do your own research as it is never wise to go about listening to what is posted on any forum without a grain of salt.

Last link I'll throw up in hopes you'll read and take something away from it.
http://www.miracerros.com/mustang/t_suspension.htm
__________________


Big corral, very few horses.

Member of Team IRS-GT #0 ^^

The bucket is up for sale.

Last edited by Aereon; 02-01-2009 at 10:19 AM.
Aereon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2009, 10:55 AM   #20
WhiteFoxGT
Resident Ford Troll
 
WhiteFoxGT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Vehicle: 98 Cobra
Location: Delaware
Posts: 5,986
Default

Dude Im not arguing with you, You took my post the wrong way. I was simply telling the OP how he doesnt have to spend a ton of money to be able to hook up.. It w/e, I was up way too late last night anyway
WhiteFoxGT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2009, 10:55 AM
MustangForums
Ford Mustang




Paid Advertisement

 
 
 
Reply

Tags
2008, agx, center, diagam, forum, front, geometry, ii, inclination, kingpin, kyb, mustang, rear, roll, shocks, suspension

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Mod Motor guy checking in. School me on Windsors. 35thAnni99GT 5.0L General Discussion 13 08-18-2008 05:48 PM

Advertising

Featured Sponsors
Vendor Directory
New Sponsors
All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:50 AM.

© Internet Brands, Inc.


This forum is owned and operated by Internet Brands, Inc., a Delaware corporation. It is not authorized or endorsed by the Ford Motor Company and is not affiliated with the Ford Motor Company or its related companies in any way. Ford® is a registered trademark of the Ford Motor Company
Emails Backup