What's the earliest stage(mods) to get a dyno tune?
01-20-2010, 10:21 PM
#1
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Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: California
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What's the earliest stage(mods) to get a dyno tune?
Someone help me here because I have no idea when a dyno tune will be most effective with the least amount of mods.
I know I'm not ready but would like to know when it's time.
I swapped out my 96npi motor for a 04PI and used the 96NPI ecu/harness in my 96gt chassis. I'm thinking there's a loss in power somewhere there.
I was thinking of gettin a dyno tune after full exhaust and gears but also because of the "NPI" ecu/harness issue. Someone make sense of all this.
I know I'm not ready but would like to know when it's time.
I swapped out my 96npi motor for a 04PI and used the 96NPI ecu/harness in my 96gt chassis. I'm thinking there's a loss in power somewhere there.
I was thinking of gettin a dyno tune after full exhaust and gears but also because of the "NPI" ecu/harness issue. Someone make sense of all this.
Last edited by nascrchi; 01-22-2010 at 07:41 AM.
01-20-2010, 11:56 PM
#2
You should have a retune for the PI swap...just saying. And exhaust and intake(whatever filter/CAI/RAI you went/will go with and TB/Plenum combo), you should get a tune. But if i read this right, you didnt get a tune after the PI motor swap and you used the 96 wiring harness. This means that your computer is only fueling for 215hp instead of 260hp...so there might be some tuning needing to be done there right away. Lean conditions are not fun. So seems to me like you need a tune ASAP!!!
01-22-2010, 07:39 AM
#3
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You should have a retune for the PI swap...just saying. And exhaust and intake(whatever filter/CAI/RAI you went/will go with and TB/Plenum combo), you should get a tune. But if i read this right, you didnt get a tune after the PI motor swap and you used the 96 wiring harness. This means that your computer is only fueling for 215hp instead of 260hp...so there might be some tuning needing to be done there right away. Lean conditions are not fun. So seems to me like you need a tune ASAP!!!
Last edited by nascrchi; 01-22-2010 at 07:57 AM.
01-22-2010, 08:35 AM
#4
new fuel pump and dyno tune are in tall order. You pretty much just did a PI swap without the added compression by just swaping the motor and not swapping the wiring harness. So youre probably running REALLY lean, especially with a fuel pump on the way out. 24lb injectors and a focus pump would be a smart idea before the dyno tune.
01-22-2010, 09:58 AM
#5
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Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: California
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new fuel pump and dyno tune are in tall order. You pretty much just did a PI swap without the added compression by just swaping the motor and not swapping the wiring harness. So youre probably running REALLY lean, especially with a fuel pump on the way out. 24lb injectors and a focus pump would be a smart idea before the dyno tune.
as for running "really lean" what do you mean? I'm not sure what you're telling me in regards to that specific term. Sounds bad tho
one more thing, wouldn't gettin a tune after installing the fuel pump only, fix the fuel delivery issue? I don't understand why I need bigger injectors. I hardly have any mods.
Last edited by nascrchi; 01-22-2010 at 10:16 AM.
01-22-2010, 12:44 PM
#6
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Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: New York
Posts: 1,306
you'll be fine cruising, because the oem tune is so lame on timing and generally runs rich. Your 19lb injectors are good til around 280bhp also @80% duty cycle. So no really need to change that or your stock fuel pump. I'm running my stock 97 fuel pump right now with about 280bhp and its running rich right now (12.2), i only changed my injectors because they came with my pi parts, lol.
good thread on injectors:
https://mustangforums.com/forum/4-6l...injectors.html
edit: as for a dyno tune, you can if you want. However if you want to save money you could get a handheld tuner and wideband. Another option.
good thread on injectors:
https://mustangforums.com/forum/4-6l...injectors.html
edit: as for a dyno tune, you can if you want. However if you want to save money you could get a handheld tuner and wideband. Another option.
Last edited by stangalator; 01-22-2010 at 12:48 PM.
01-23-2010, 02:28 AM
#7
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Join Date: Jul 2009
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you'll be fine cruising, because the oem tune is so lame on timing and generally runs rich. Your 19lb injectors are good til around 280bhp also @80% duty cycle. So no really need to change that or your stock fuel pump. I'm running my stock 97 fuel pump right now with about 280bhp and its running rich right now (12.2), i only changed my injectors because they came with my pi parts, lol.
good thread on injectors:
https://mustangforums.com/forum/4-6l...injectors.html
edit: as for a dyno tune, you can if you want. However if you want to save money you could get a handheld tuner and wideband. Another option.
good thread on injectors:
https://mustangforums.com/forum/4-6l...injectors.html
edit: as for a dyno tune, you can if you want. However if you want to save money you could get a handheld tuner and wideband. Another option.
01-23-2010, 08:43 AM
#8
TECH SAVANT
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Saint Augustine, FL
Posts: 10,938
First things first, the OP needs to get a wide band O2 system, and data logger to monitor fuel trims, before doing a heck of a lot else...
That said, he swapped in an '04 motor, which will have 21lb/h (pink) injectors. The '96 tune expects 19lb/h injectors, so in open loop it will be pushing more fuel than it thinks it is--this is good as the PI motor will need more fuel.
In closed loop operation the PCM will do it's best to hold the AFR at 14.68:1, and I would not be surprised to find that the short term fuel trims are hovering around +/-5% as the larger injectors (larger than the '96 tune thinks they are) will help out there too.
As to 280HP on 19lb/h injectors @ 80% DC, I doubt it--those puppies would be at 95% easy and very close to going static.
19lb/h * 80% * 8 = 121.6lb/h of fuel; at 0.5lb/h BSFC (Brake Specific Fuel Consumption, 0.5lb/h is rule of thumb for n/a engines) that would be only 243.2 HP, at the crankshaft.
19lb/h * 95% * 8 = 144.4lb/h, or 288.8 crank HP.
That's why Ford changed to the 21lb/h injectors in the late 2002 MY, the 19s had to run at 85% to 90% DC to support the factory claimed 260 HP. I believe that after cleaning up the '99 Cobra debacle they revisited the 2V in the GT and said "whoops!"...
That said, he swapped in an '04 motor, which will have 21lb/h (pink) injectors. The '96 tune expects 19lb/h injectors, so in open loop it will be pushing more fuel than it thinks it is--this is good as the PI motor will need more fuel.
In closed loop operation the PCM will do it's best to hold the AFR at 14.68:1, and I would not be surprised to find that the short term fuel trims are hovering around +/-5% as the larger injectors (larger than the '96 tune thinks they are) will help out there too.
As to 280HP on 19lb/h injectors @ 80% DC, I doubt it--those puppies would be at 95% easy and very close to going static.
19lb/h * 80% * 8 = 121.6lb/h of fuel; at 0.5lb/h BSFC (Brake Specific Fuel Consumption, 0.5lb/h is rule of thumb for n/a engines) that would be only 243.2 HP, at the crankshaft.
19lb/h * 95% * 8 = 144.4lb/h, or 288.8 crank HP.
That's why Ford changed to the 21lb/h injectors in the late 2002 MY, the 19s had to run at 85% to 90% DC to support the factory claimed 260 HP. I believe that after cleaning up the '99 Cobra debacle they revisited the 2V in the GT and said "whoops!"...
01-23-2010, 03:42 PM
#9
3rd Gear Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: California
Posts: 875
First things first, the OP needs to get a wide band O2 system, and data logger to monitor fuel trims, before doing a heck of a lot else...
That said, he swapped in an '04 motor, which will have 21lb/h (pink) injectors. The '96 tune expects 19lb/h injectors, so in open loop it will be pushing more fuel than it thinks it is--this is good as the PI motor will need more fuel.
In closed loop operation the PCM will do it's best to hold the AFR at 14.68:1, and I would not be surprised to find that the short term fuel trims are hovering around +/-5% as the larger injectors (larger than the '96 tune thinks they are) will help out there too.
As to 280HP on 19lb/h injectors @ 80% DC, I doubt it--those puppies would be at 95% easy and very close to going static.
19lb/h * 80% * 8 = 121.6lb/h of fuel; at 0.5lb/h BSFC (Brake Specific Fuel Consumption, 0.5lb/h is rule of thumb for n/a engines) that would be only 243.2 HP, at the crankshaft.
19lb/h * 95% * 8 = 144.4lb/h, or 288.8 crank HP.
That's why Ford changed to the 21lb/h injectors in the late 2002 MY, the 19s had to run at 85% to 90% DC to support the factory claimed 260 HP. I believe that after cleaning up the '99 Cobra debacle they revisited the 2V in the GT and said "whoops!"...
That said, he swapped in an '04 motor, which will have 21lb/h (pink) injectors. The '96 tune expects 19lb/h injectors, so in open loop it will be pushing more fuel than it thinks it is--this is good as the PI motor will need more fuel.
In closed loop operation the PCM will do it's best to hold the AFR at 14.68:1, and I would not be surprised to find that the short term fuel trims are hovering around +/-5% as the larger injectors (larger than the '96 tune thinks they are) will help out there too.
As to 280HP on 19lb/h injectors @ 80% DC, I doubt it--those puppies would be at 95% easy and very close to going static.
19lb/h * 80% * 8 = 121.6lb/h of fuel; at 0.5lb/h BSFC (Brake Specific Fuel Consumption, 0.5lb/h is rule of thumb for n/a engines) that would be only 243.2 HP, at the crankshaft.
19lb/h * 95% * 8 = 144.4lb/h, or 288.8 crank HP.
That's why Ford changed to the 21lb/h injectors in the late 2002 MY, the 19s had to run at 85% to 90% DC to support the factory claimed 260 HP. I believe that after cleaning up the '99 Cobra debacle they revisited the 2V in the GT and said "whoops!"...
http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/i...f119e7d1073265 this?
First of all, thanks for tuning in Cliff; I appreciate that.
Secondly, I really feel like my car runs good. However, something changed when I turn on my car now as this issue didn't occur with my NPI engine.
I have to turn the key to the "on" position, wait for the fuel pump to pump, and then fire up the car. If I don't folow this process, my car will sound as if it has cams and sound like it shut's off after a quik tap to the gas pedal. Not quite, but you get the idea. So definitely some lack in fuel pump pressure.
Is the link I posted what I need? Or just a new fuel pump? Because I was thinking if I get a new fuel pump, I may buy one that pumps too much fuel and cause problems(don't know what I'm talkin about there).
01-23-2010, 06:31 PM
#10
TECH SAVANT
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Saint Augustine, FL
Posts: 10,938
You have to read a digital display to figure out what's going on, but you can just glance at an analog display and get a good feeling for what the value is.
Also, the speed and range over which a value is changing (meter ballistics) displayed by an analog gauge contains all sort of valuable information...
First of all, thanks for tuning in Cliff; I appreciate that.
Secondly, I really feel like my car runs good. However, something changed when I turn on my car now as this issue didn't occur with my NPI engine.
I have to turn the key to the "on" position, wait for the fuel pump to pump, and then fire up the car. If I don't folow this process, my car will sound as if it has cams and sound like it shut's off after a quik tap to the gas pedal. Not quite, but you get the idea. So definitely some lack in fuel pump pressure.
Is the link I posted what I need? Or just a new fuel pump? Because I was thinking if I get a new fuel pump, I may buy one that pumps too much fuel and cause problems(don't know what I'm talkin about there).
Secondly, I really feel like my car runs good. However, something changed when I turn on my car now as this issue didn't occur with my NPI engine.
I have to turn the key to the "on" position, wait for the fuel pump to pump, and then fire up the car. If I don't folow this process, my car will sound as if it has cams and sound like it shut's off after a quik tap to the gas pedal. Not quite, but you get the idea. So definitely some lack in fuel pump pressure.
Is the link I posted what I need? Or just a new fuel pump? Because I was thinking if I get a new fuel pump, I may buy one that pumps too much fuel and cause problems(don't know what I'm talkin about there).
This should not cause any problems, however--just thinking "out loud"...
Before changing the fuel pump you should do a fuel system leakdown test, this is done by connecting a fuel pressure gauge and then running the engine until it's warm, make a note of the fuel pressure while running.
Then shut the engine off and watch the pressure, it should stay within 5 psi of the running value for 5 to 10 minutes. If it bleeds down faster than that then either the injectors are leaking, or the fuel pressure regulator is not closing properly and letting fuel bleed back in to the tank.