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Any S197 3V's with 600 -800hp DD?

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Old 06-23-2014, 08:51 AM   #1
Mellowdien
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Default Any S197 3V's with 600 -800hp DD?

Hey Guys,

So i was just making my "dream build" list.

I often see people getting forged blocks from Brenspeed or Livernois and then just using a small twin screw supercharger. And more often than not keeping their transmission "Stock".
Usually they end up in the 500+rwhp area but seldomly going upwards of 600rwhp.

I have a personal preference to twin screw superchargers. Mainly Whipple, but it looks like the 2.3liter S/C is the only one that is used on the 3V engine? (just taking twin screws intro consideration.. )

Do the others (2.9 , 3.4 or even the 4.0 ) not fit our engine?

I've just wondered what the point would be in getting a forged block if you're only going to push slightly more boost than you would on a stock block...

There are a few guys on here i've seen pushing slightly over 500rwhp on a stock block and stock transmission. I know thats living on borrowed time but if i had a forged engine and built transmission i'd like to DD it with atleast 600rwhp (as overkill as this is for a DD driver but still) and maybe upping the boost to around ~700-800rwhp when i'm at the track..

BTW i'm not hating or bashing on the people that do what i desribed above.
Just a slow day at work i guess...
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Old 06-23-2014, 01:57 PM   #2
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For clarification: What do you mean when you say "stock block" and "forged block"? Are you talking about the factory aluminum block with forged internals or are you talking about an aftermarket block?

I think the factory block is good for well over 600hp as long as you have the proper internals and good tune.

There are 4.6's out there running the larger displacement superchargers. There aren't many of them because they don't use the same manifold to mount to the engine. When people start using the bigger blowers, they typically don't have an mass market, off-the-shelf intercooler and heat exchanger setup. That makes it difficult for manufacturers to produce a one size fits all kit.

I suspect that parasitic losses and thermal efficiency are also big reasons you don't see the big blowers on a relatively small v8 like our 3V.

As for why so few 6-800hp daily drivers....It's difficult to get that amount of HP out of a relatively small v8 without compromising on drivability. Either you sacrifice low rpm drivabilty for peak HP or you leave some HP on the table at the top end so you still can drive it around town. It's much easier to get the drivability and HP on a larger displacement motor....at the expense of efficiency rather than drivability.
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Old 06-23-2014, 02:18 PM   #3
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You can make that much power with the 2.3. you're going to need the steeda belt drive or an 8 rib pulley setup just to start. It's a lot of money to buy a 5.0L short block, $5k from brenspeed, then i need new ported head, my stockers are tired I'm sure. I'm probably looking at 10k for brenspeed to put me a longblock together and I still need new clutch and transmission to support it. That's why I haven't done it. Their new 5.0 3v made 748hp on the engine dyno with a 2.3 blower. Just getting enough fuel to the motor starts getting stupid expensive. I just can't see putting that much more money into my 8 year old car. I all ready can't use all the power I'm making and driving around on drag radials in Florida is a death wish.

it's just not very practical. I'd rather buy a used 2013-14 gt and put a blower on it or a used gt500. At least then my paint wouldn't be 8 years old and look like ****.

I kinda want to see how long the stock block and transmission will last. 40,000+ miles so far with the whipple, that's over the course of 7 years.
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Old 06-23-2014, 02:44 PM   #4
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Once you go above about 600RWHP, it get's real expensive because there are so many weak links. As Moose said, just the fuel system to supply enough power for 700RWHP is getting in the $2000-$3000 range, as opposed to the GT500 fuel pumps or KB boost-a-pump which will do 600RWHP for less than $1K.

"department of boost" makes a manifold that allows the use of all the GT500 based superchargers on the 3V engines, that opens up the possibilities of the big Whipples, KBs and TVS options... if you're into the positive displacement blowers and instant torque.

As far as daily driving, I would recommend not going with cam shafts that are too aggressive, as they make driving in traffic a bit tricky as it takes some finesse to get it to start from a stop smoothly.
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Old 06-23-2014, 03:05 PM   #5
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@danzcool, funny you should mention d.o.b , i was just reading an article where they mentioned them; http://www.mustangandfords.com/featu...eek/specs.html

I was researching to find a build where someone has just used a short block (or long block) from for instance brenspeed or mmr and used a larger displacement supercharger with that. No luck so far..

@moosestang, from a financial point of view i understand, but it seems that people went "crazier" on other mustang platforms, and that it feels like you just hit a brick wall regardless of the aftermarket support after 500-600rwhp.

@breathegood, i didnt exactly mean a daily driver, more like daily driveable.. but i still think it'd be super cool if one of the vendors started supporting the idea of what i was talking about. It seems that everything is in place. TCI has even had their auto transmissions build up "1000hp" already for imo a decent price.. all thats needed now is someone to piece together a big supercharger kit on a B326 longblock to test TCI's claim.. what you're saying is highly likely though, like i said.. i was just brain storming on the idea..
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Old 06-23-2014, 06:07 PM   #6
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those dyno numbers i quoted from brenspeed weren't even with the b326 block, it was a 302, so 700rwhp is definitely doable with a 2.3 blower. I'd rather take my $10k for a new engine and put it down on this.

http://www.cargurus.com/Cars/l-Used-...sting=87175751

Sell the 06 for whatever i can get and build me a beast out of that beast with the cash from the 06. I think that's what a lot of people have done. I'd probably buy a fiat 500 with the money from the 06, cause I just can't see driving the shelby in the rain.
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Old 06-23-2014, 08:13 PM   #7
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Definitely, something i'd consider if i lived in the states. To give you the short version, it's about 87% import duties on the CIF of the car when you import it to where i am. (my 07GT was around 56k when i bought her new in '07)...

So 45k + 4k(shipping and insurance) + 87% would be around ~90k.
Not looking to spend that kind of money right now.
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Old 06-23-2014, 10:34 PM   #8
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The 3v 4.6L engine is a bit of the "odd man out", only 6 total production years, pretty much every other ford v8 motor has had a longer production run, and the more years it's been in production means more aftermarket parts.

Most people do just move up the food chain rather than pour money into their current car. There was a time when I thought I would have been better off trading up to a gt500, but I've gotten over that now. One thing that cannot be understated is that the 4.6L engine is a boost mule, these things love boost. And the actual block design (not talking pistons & rods), is stronger than the coyote 5.0 (I know, blasphemy). The 3-valve heads can actually flow pretty good when ported. A lot of the people making big power are doing it with either turbos or centifugal superchargers, you should be able to get up to 650RWHP out of the whipple 2.3L using the steeda belt drive system or going with an 8-rib belt system with a 15% overdrive crank pulley and small supercharger pulley, to go bigger power than that you'd need a bigger supercharger with bigger intercoolers. There is enough aftermarket to get there, I'm using the tremec t56-Magnum XL 6-speed transmission that is simply rated as 700+ torque, with the mcleod RXT clutch & flywheel, you can go crazy on the rear end & axles since it's the same 8.8" that's been used for decades, I'm still on the stock for now. There are enough options all around if you decide to go big.
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Old 06-24-2014, 07:23 PM   #9
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Ok. So if you look at stats, the new Modular 5.0 stroker from FRPP stats are : 3V SC - Ford Racing 3V Ported Heads, Ford Racing 2.3L Supercharger and Hot Rod Cams �€� 748 HP/667 lb. ft. torque. That is well within the strength capability of that block.
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Old 06-25-2014, 01:47 AM   #10
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I have one of those 3V's in the power range you're asking about, with a Kenne Bell 2.6L Stage 2, running 18 psi of boost. (I estimate engine power being around 725-750, with mild losses through a non-locked automatic, dyno'd at 600 at the wheels on 93 octane pump gas only.)
The engine is a custom forged build to handle the power, and transmission and driveshaft to support it as well, through a GT500 rear end.

It isn't technically a daily driver, but I have driven it to work and do drive it on the street for fun and on weekends (I no longer daily drive it because of all the other idiot drivers out there!). It is 100% street legal, and mean at the drag strip!

As mentioned, it takes a LOT of supporting modifications to support that kind of power.

And if you have never driven a 500+ hp car on the street, it all depends how well it is tuned. Some people have 'touchy pedal' issues, but mine drives very well.
And when you "get on it", you better have some good tires, and have that "butt-clench" going on, because things happen really fast, and you must stay in control. You can be going 30 mph and hit it and in a few seconds be easily flying past 100. Fun Fun Fun!!!
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Old 06-25-2014, 04:34 AM   #11
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My street pump gas tune is 600rwhp. I could run maybe 650 safely but why? When you get up into the 550-600 rwhp range it really isn't as fun to drive as something around 500.

I have twin turbos, an auto and an extremely good tune, so it's a lot easier to DD then for someone with a manual and a PD blower. I can drive it almost like stock but I have to be very careful with throttle application in the lower gears. If I get into much boost, in the lower gears, it just blows the tires off, even with drag radials on the rear.

As Mike said in his post, you have to really be in control all the time. You can end up sideways, or in a ditch, in an instant. If you have never driven an high HP car on the street, you really need to think about where you want your build to end up.
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Old 06-25-2014, 07:56 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tx_zstang View Post
I have one of those 3V's in the power range you're asking about, with a Kenne Bell 2.6L Stage 2, running 18 psi of boost. (I estimate engine power being around 725-750, with mild losses through a non-locked automatic, dyno'd at 600 at the wheels on 93 octane pump gas only.)
The engine is a custom forged build to handle the power, and transmission and driveshaft to support it as well, through a GT500 rear end.

It isn't technically a daily driver, but I have driven it to work and do drive it on the street for fun and on weekends (I no longer daily drive it because of all the other idiot drivers out there!). It is 100% street legal, and mean at the drag strip!

As mentioned, it takes a LOT of supporting modifications to support that kind of power.

And if you have never driven a 500+ hp car on the street, it all depends how well it is tuned. Some people have 'touchy pedal' issues, but mine drives very well.
And when you "get on it", you better have some good tires, and have that "butt-clench" going on, because things happen really fast, and you must stay in control. You can be going 30 mph and hit it and in a few seconds be easily flying past 100. Fun Fun Fun!!!
Not trying to threadjack, but I am interested in this as well. I picked up Danzcool's only 2.3L Whipple and love it... but of course, I want more. I'm looking at the B326 block and T56 at some point (year or two), But the question turns to this, you say GT500 rear end are you speaking of this? :http://www.americanmuscle.com/frpp-s...mbly-0512.html

I was also looking into this: with 4.10s: http://www.brenspeed.com/bren8-8package.html


Bottom line is cost savings vs benefit analysis, wearability and of course, legal at the strip... Thanks ahead of time for input
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Old 06-25-2014, 08:35 PM   #13
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Im a little north of 500 about 525 and its drives great on the stock tranny. Im gonna leave it where its at but I may have them tweak the tune a bit to get 10 sec1/4. I have added some weight to my car. Sound deadeingin added a lot. my best run is 11.2 so far. I have always been under the impression once you get passed 550 they are not that fun to drive on the street any more. But im sure that's all in ones opinion. Id like to swap out the tranny but I don't think I will unless my tranny takes a dump which im not expecting it too.
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Old 07-10-2014, 02:03 AM   #14
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Im a little north of 500 about 525 and its drives great on the stock tranny. Im gonna leave it where its at but I may have them tweak the tune a bit to get 10 sec1/4. I have added some weight to my car. Sound deadeingin added a lot. my best run is 11.2 so far. I have always been under the impression once you get passed 550 they are not that fun to drive on the street any more. But im sure that's all in ones opinion. Id like to swap out the tranny but I don't think I will unless my tranny takes a dump which im not expecting it too.
I'd leave the stock auto in there at that power level, but would recommend upgrading the intermediate and overdrive servos, and if possible, the input shaft. TCI makes upgraded replacements, and I had them in my 5r55s and it held up to 500 to the wheels just fine. That's a good trans for streetability, but as you get into higher power, if you do a lot of racing, it won't hold up that long, unless you're one of the lucky ones.

diazrael, the GT500 rear end I have I picked up locally from a private seller; just happened to be an 8.8 and i was looking for one at the time.
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Old 07-11-2014, 11:36 AM   #15
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Daily driving a 3v with this much power is possible but it takes some serious coin to ensure it will stay on the road daily. As mentioned by a lot of these guys...upgrade your fuel system!
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Old 08-01-2014, 05:28 AM   #16
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I DD my car, 365 days a year, even in the snow during winter. I bought it and modded it to drive it, not hide it in the garage.
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Old 08-01-2014, 08:09 AM   #17
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Quote:
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Im a little north of 500 about 525 and its drives great on the stock tranny. Im gonna leave it where its at but I may have them tweak the tune a bit to get 10 sec1/4. I have added some weight to my car. Sound deadeingin added a lot. my best run is 11.2 so far. I have always been under the impression once you get passed 550 they are not that fun to drive on the street any more. But im sure that's all in ones opinion. Id like to swap out the tranny but I don't think I will unless my tranny takes a dump which im not expecting it too.
This is where I am at. Stock displacement, cams and mostly stock exhaust. 15 psi @540 rwhp. Stock tranny and driveshaft. Axles are original.

I drive DRs everyday and everything works great. I could probably add cams, long tubes and a few psi and make 600 rwhp. BUt I'm happy where I'm at. Only thing I would really like to change is the tranny.
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Old 08-02-2014, 09:51 PM   #18
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This is where I am at. Stock displacement, cams and mostly stock exhaust. 15 psi @540 rwhp. Stock tranny and driveshaft. Axles are original.

I drive DRs everyday and everything works great. I could probably add cams, long tubes and a few psi and make 600 rwhp. BUt I'm happy where I'm at. Only thing I would really like to change is the tranny.
Nice. I tend to leave my DRs on all summer then switch back to my other setup. I'm waiting for a cool day to head back to the track to see if I can't crack the 10 sec barrier.

Nice car ap
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