5spd GT

You spoke of cross section above, right?

AFR 165: 2.013
TW 170: 2.184
AFR 185: 2.257

I am also trying to keep the heads as equally equipped. I am not going to putthe cheapest.550" valvetrain cylinder head at 170cc, and compare it to a AFR 185cc with a .600" lift spring. I compared them with the same springs, to make it more apples to apples, and not apples to oranges.

So it is still a 7-8% difference, and the AFR heads have full CNC ports and chambers. Ask Onyx what he thinks of them. I have had a couple sets in my hands before.

To quote Jay Allen from a thread a couple years ago:

"The TW design is a failed Pro Stock design that Pontiac tried in the late 1980's. It moves a ***** load of air, but the air is confused and twists and turns. ie, swirl. Swirl is for low piston speeds, emmission friendly applications. It does NOT make power. " - Jay Allen.


AFR'shave a lighter valvetrain and lighter springs modeled after the LS1. This increases the capabilities and RPM limits OOTB.

You are comparing the heads you want to compare.

The AFR heads swapped recently, just a few months ago. It is currently the current time period, right?

We buy heads now, not one year ago.

You trash AFR on a regular basis. I compare them on a regular basis.

I look forward to comments.

I am glad you are keeping this level headed. To many times, people make personal attacks.

What do you think?

5spd GT

Lighter valvetrain is nice...

A quote:

"I don't recall the exact "ballpark" for grams saved v. greater rpm capability but I believe it is something like 1 gram = 10 rpm... I am sure there are many variables that come into play as well...

I run a solid flat tappet cam and switched to a set of PAC beehives from Ed. Prior to the beehives I was using a Comp 929. We are required to use steel retainers per class rules...

The following are the weights of the components...

Comp 929 retainer and 10* lock: 37 grams
Beehive retainer and 7* lock: 14.5 grams

Comp 929 spring: 151.5 grams
Beehive spring: 95.5 grams

I had the 929's set up with ~155lbs on the seat and ~400lbs over the nose. The engine would go into valve float around 7400 rpm. The springs would drop ~20lbs of seat pressure after the first "run in" and I would have to shim them back up...

With the beehives I run ~150lbs on the seat and ~370lbs over the nose. I shift at 7600 rpm and go through the traps at about 7900 rpm. There are absolutely no signs of float. After 34 passes the beehives have not lost one pound of seat pressure. Even better news, no more broken up Ferrea valves..."

TrickFlowTech

"The TW design is a failed Pro Stock design that Pontiac tried in the late 1980's. It moves a ***** load of air, but the air is confused and twists and turns. ie, swirl. Swirl is for low piston speeds, emmission friendly applications. It does NOT make power. " - Jay Allen.


If this is true, why is the TW head the #1 head used in NMRA?

For ahead that does not make power, please explain to me how Phil Clemmons managed to make several 7 secondpasses with a street TW head equipped engine?

While I do realize Phils heads were not " As cast OTB heads" theystill maintained the stock TFS port and valve locations.

5spd GT

TrickflowTech - You guys make a good product!

I am not denying that.

ih8chevy

you guys never stop amazing me, looking at what trick flow did for the bbf back in the late 80's early 90's with the invent of the A head and the B "bastard pro stock head" that too quote a legendary engine builder "was years ahead of its time, and there have been heads only recently that have caught up to its max flow and power efforts." -Paul Kane. trick flow bleeds ford blue and I wouldnt buy heads from anyone else if it were me for a bbf and even the small block. Trick flows "failed pro Stock", thats bs, I dont care who said it. Well why dont you ask bob glidden what he thought of the trick flow heads? And if you dont know who bob glidden is then dont bother reading anymore.

5spd GT

ihchevy - I know who Bob Glidden is. There is some irony there...

It is best to leave this thread now

86 5.0L

ummm thats not true... the windsor 302 used a twisted wedge design up until 85, in 86 they went to the swirl design, which is what the E6 heads are, a high-swirl design, performance was hurt abit but emssions went down, in 87 I believe Ford went back to the twisted wedge design

EDIT: heres the source

http://www.mustanggt.org/86gt.htm

FullAuto

So whichtwo are the better comparison based on cross section? Which two are the better comparison based on price (BTW, I've since found the TFS TW starting at $1099 which make the AFR >28% more)? Which two come with a 2.02" intake valve? Which two give the largest OTS cam selection for stock shortblocks? Which one head is the cheapest? Which one head can be ported the furthest?
It's not a .550 spring on the TW. It's a .540. And just because both companies have a .600 springs, doesn't make them the same. In fact, they are still not the same. And trust me, you do NOT want to compare apples to apples. If we're going to compare apples to apples, let's bring out the 185cc TW so we can compare what a FULL CNC port. AFR is cheaper, has a lighter valve (I'll get to this later), and a spring that will go on a shelf (or in the trash) whenever a real spring is added for a real build. Do you not like to match your springs to the cam? Or this is spring variable in pressure?

Jay's definition of what is a failure and what makes power is not at the same standards of most people. Do you know whatheads Jay is using on his proto-type 8.2" 357" motor? Do I even need to say? Do you think it won't make power? Now are they optimal? Are they what he would have chosen if he could have anything for free? Those are different questions.

And at what point does this become a factor? How many customers do you think in the past turned down ordering AFRs because they came standard with heavier valves and springs? Okay, maybe that's not a good question because I know several that passed because of their springs. LOL How many NEW customers do you think they've gained now that they have lightened their valves and springs? They HAD to change springs because for years people have used the AFR spring as a punchline. All the CNC work in the world wouldn't cover up the crap they assembled their heads with.

This arguement I will admit is a little better than the side loading and rod ratio arguements you used to preach about. Sure, there is some factual basis for this claim, but reality is, you're trying to promote increased valvetrain capabilities and RPM limits to people who are running SADI cams with their 6250 rev limiters and saying it was modeled after a motor that uses a 55mm billet steel cam that could see the benefits of the differences. The customers these heads target will likely never see any difference, and an overwhelming majority of them don't understand what is potentially to be gained nor would care about it if they did understand.

Which heads would you like to compare? Are you saying we should be comparing the little 165? HA!

Yes, it is. So prior to a few months ago you didn't think AFR was the best on the market? So tell us all, are you going to order 8mm valves and 1.29" springs for your heads now?

Negative. I recommend different heads for different applications. AFRs are overpriced and underperform for the money spent. AFRs are bad bang for the buck in comparision to several other cylinder heads on the market. Is this bashing them? I don't thinkso. They do work. They work well enough that most people would be overly satisified at their performance andnever know what they are missing from a superior head. Could you do worse? There's always Edelbrock Performers or a set of GT40X heads. There would be very few circumstances I wouldn't recommend a set of used AFRs for the right price. But pretty much any other time, if a new head is wanted, there are plenty of other choices on the market that I feel are better bang for the buck than AFR depending on the combo. At the low end of that spectrum is the TW. This is a beginner's forum for the most part. There is no more universal head out there than the TFS TW. Which AFR casting would you recommend to these guys for their stock shortblock cars that they can keep and will grow with them as they do until they are running say... 8.50s? I had a stock AOD hatch that ran 15s. I bought a used set of TW heads for $700. The car went 13s. When I sold those heads, the car was running low 10s. They are now on a car running mid-9s. They will most likely be running high 8s by the end of the year. Same heavy 2.02" valves too.

I see people make personal attacks on you all the time. Generally, I feel you've earned it.

86 5.0L

wow, even FullAuto came back for this thread[&:]

WhiteWindsor

For the people who just feel like Tech is here to advertise and sell his products, that statement is incorrect on all levels. Trickflow is just stating facts and giving very good info. If he did not work for TF and someone was saying what heis saying no-one would have a problem with it. He is not saying you have an inferior product just because you use AFR. He is clearing up any opinions and mis-conceptions that consumers may have about TrickFlow. And yes i use TrickFlow heads and i am very pleased. To people who are not very familiar with performancecylinder headsthe firstcompany everyone thinks of is AFR. Are they a great head? Absolutely! But AFR is not in a leaque of their own. IMO opinion i think anyone that is investing in performance cylinder heads should buy from AFR or Trickflow (not neccesarily in that order). He is not knocking anyone who use's a different product or trying to belittle them, he is just giving facts about his products. I welcome his knowledge in the performance industry and i'm glad he take's time to share it with us. I have not heard him one time try to sway or change people's mind about buying another product, he just give's detailed info.

Fullauto: You are a wealth of knowledge and i enjoy reading your post, i value your opinion and respect what you have to say. You were missed by myself when you left for a while. I heard various things as you reason for leaving. Whatever they were, i dont care. I hope you stay involved. We have really gotten some great members to join us recently and i'm glad for it. Jasper sent me a pm a couple of weeks ago saying this was going to happen. If he made this possible then my props to him and if not i'm sure he'll take credit for it. I dont want to leave Woodsy out either, he has been awesome. To anyone else i'm forgetting, i'm glad to you on board so we can pick your brain.