82bossblack

hi i got a 1988 notch back and i want to no what to go with for a race car i have a 1969 cleveland that is pretty built and i would like to no what i should go with windser or a cleveland?

kilby94

I copied and pasted this from hotrodders.com.. Somebody had asked the same question..



"351C 2V is a decent motor. The 2V ports will outflow all the Windsor factory iron heads. The oiling system is the same design as the 460 and requires very little attention unless you're running sustained 7000+rpm speeds.

The 351C 4V is a kick *** engine and the 4V heads having NO port velocity is a common exaggeration. The air is not stagnant by any means and yes, lower rpm velocity is less than the 2Vs but they have a better intake port location and short side radius.

351Ws need aftermarket heads to make impressive amounts of horsepower. A lot of aftermarket heads for the 351C have become available in the last few years. Blue Thunder (2), AFD (2), CHI (3), Edelbrock(1) and Procomp (1). Competition helps reduce pricing.

351w.... logical progression/extension if the 221/260/289. thinwall casting, large bearing area, good oiling system. Capable of impressive amounts of horsepower. Also reliable for use in the daily beater/work truck. Given the choice, the 351w is the winner hands down in this contest.The 351c is getting a little hard to come by & most of the performance pieces are a little pricey.."

Gary H

The 351w will be cheaper and parts are easier to find.

wildcobrar

I have played with both the Cleveland engines and the Windsor engines. There is a larger ammount of aftermarket parts/following for the Windsor though the Cleveland is catching up. There is also alot more Windsor blocks kicking around given it was produced from 1969 through to 1995/96. The Cleveland was produced from 1970 to 1973 and some info into 1974 as a carry over to use up stock.

Thus finding Cleveland stuff is becoming difficult. Disadvantage Cleveland.

The Cleveland has better factory heads than the Windsor hands down. Advantage Cleveland if you want to go stock heads.

The Cleveland and Windsor have same transmission bolt pattern, same engine mount set up, and need oil pan/header swap to go into a Fox Mustang. No advantage to either engine.

The Cleveland has a 9.2 Deck and the Windsor has a 9.5 Deck so the Cleveland is a little smaller and a little shorter. Theremay be a slight advantage to engine bay room making one a little easier to maintain. Possible advatage Cleveland.

Given the 9.2 vs. 9.5 deck and both engines have 3.5 inch stroke and factory internals the Cleveland has lighter pistons and connecting rods. If you are staying stock stroke, Advantage Cleveland.

Clevelands are known for having thin cylinder walls. Advantage Windsor.
Windsor has slightly better oiling system. Advantage Windsor. $11.00 Moroso oil restrictor kit and Cleveland is good to go.

The Windsor has 3 inch main bearings. Cleveland has 2.75 inch main bearings. Smaller is less bearing speed and less bearing heat and less wieght in Crankshaft. Advatntage Cleveland.(again using stock parts).

Here is a 2V version of a Cleveland using stock parts and no power adder that I have run for many years and still run to this day. It is in a 3250 pound 1990 Fox Mustang with driver. Without optimal gearing here is what the car runs(street car on pump gas).

10.74 @128 MPH I know it will run harder with ported 4V factory heads.

KB 148 Hyperutectic pistons with 13 cc dish($205.00 @ Summit)
Speed Pro file fit plasma rings($95.00 @ Summit)
ARP Rod bolts($40.00 @ Summit)
Moroso oil restrictor kit($10.00 @ Summit)
Fel Pro Gasket set($60.00 @ Summit)
Stock rods resized, stock crank turned .030 mains and .020 rods with block @.060 over bore and tanked($300.00 local shop) Block did not have to be decked as the pistons came in at .005 below deck.
Sonic check block($160.00 local shop)
Milodon head studs($60.00 @Summit)
Comp flat solid cam($148.00 @ Summit)
Melling edge orfice lifters($80.00 @ Summit)
Comp 3/8 .080 wall push rods($135.00 @ Summit)
Engine balancing was ($250.00 @ local shop)
Melling hi volume oil pump and ARP pump shaft($60.00 for both @ Summit)
Ford Racing 9 index Timing chain ($55.00 @ Summit)
Block is a D2 4 bolt block.
Aussie Heads that were hand ported, machined for studs and guide plates with Ferrea mid grade valves, resurfaced, valve job, guide job and oven baked, and chambers rolled back. Comp steel 10 degree locks and retainers with Ford Racing springs($80.00 for springs 130 lbs seat/450 lbs open) Heads were ($1600.00 assembled and I supplied the springs.
Comp stock ratio Aluminum roller rockers ($225.00 from head porter)
Comp 3/8 raised guide plates($40.00 ish @ Summit)
Clevitte 77 bearings for rod and mains($85.00 @ Summit)
Canton Fox chassis 7 quart oil pan, windage tray, pick up, and dip stick tube ($320.00 from Total performance)
Weiand Aluminum water pump($80.00 @ Summit with home made water restrictor in place of thermostat with 9/16 hole because 5/8 ran far too cold)
Parker Racing Funnel Web 2V intake($450.00 from Terry Parker)
Headman Husslers 1 7/8 primary with 3 inch collector($447.00 @Summit)
750 HOM carb done to 850 by AED ($500.00 from Holcomb Motorsports)
Assembly by owner($free)

TOTAL $5485.00

Best time to date is 10.74 @128 in a 3250 lb car. It is 9.8 to 1 compression and runs on pump gas. Prices are from 6 years ago and this engine has been low maintenance and still runs great today.
Launch RPM with a stick is 6000 RPM and shifted @7000 RPM more times than the doors swing open at a ***** house.

I feel it is a reasonable build considering the intake, carb, and headers set me back $1500.00



Joe

Ford Drag Team

Nice man!
I am a big Cleveland fan, in fact theyre my fav Ford motor aside from a Boss 302 or a 427.
Clevelands are very durable if the oil system is tended to, like you stated.
The smaller mains allow them to rev higher and quicker than a Windsor, and if comparing a stock motor to another, the Cleveland heads dominate over the Windsor heads.

Too bad it met it's demise during the smog years, which killed it off. I believe that if given a few more years, the oiling and cylinder wall thickness issues would have been resolved, therefore making an even better motor.

Cleveland were used in the early Prostock cars throughout the 70's and were used by Bob Glidden among others, so thats a testement to how well they performed.

wrenchturner75

if you wanna truly know what the mighty cleveland is capable of jump over to the 335 series forum youll meet guys who eat and sleep nothing but these motors. now with a couple different companies offering aluminum cylinder heads for the cleve like AFD, TRICK FLOW, CHI, maybe some others as well the skys the limit for these powerhouses. and the "possibility of a new and much improved block! talk is an aluminum one is in the works also. so hang on to them cleveland parts guys! i feel this motor is just getting started. long live the cleveland!

82bossblack

thanks that is really helpful and i was wondering were you got the oil pan pick up tube and windage tray from..

wildcobrar

Canton 7 quart for a fox. Hit them up they will get you what you need.

Joe