removing the heater
03-11-2011, 05:11 PM
#11
6th Gear Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 6,882
The heater is required as part of basic safety equipment under Federal law in order to have a window defroster/defogger. So it's not the heater core itself per se, but a front windshield defroster/defogger that needs heat to operate.
FMVSS = Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard. You'll notice it's a 30 page document detailing the testing of such systems.
Here's a general list of the FMVSS's, what the Federal Government regulates on automobiles.
http://www.carsafetylawyer.com/resou...tandards-fmvss
http://www.nhtsa.gov/DOT/NHTSA/Vehic.../TP-103-13.pdf
FMVSS = Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard. You'll notice it's a 30 page document detailing the testing of such systems.
Here's a general list of the FMVSS's, what the Federal Government regulates on automobiles.
http://www.carsafetylawyer.com/resou...tandards-fmvss
http://www.nhtsa.gov/DOT/NHTSA/Vehic.../TP-103-13.pdf
The U.S. National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) publishes the Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards (FMVSS) that manufacturers must meet in order for their vehicles to be legally sold in the United States:
03-12-2011, 04:35 PM
#12
1st Gear Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: texas
Posts: 143
The heater is required as part of basic safety equipment under Federal law in order to have a window defroster/defogger. So it's not the heater core itself per se, but a front windshield defroster/defogger that needs heat to operate.
FMVSS = Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard. You'll notice it's a 30 page document detailing the testing of such systems.
Here's a general list of the FMVSS's, what the Federal Government regulates on automobiles.
http://www.carsafetylawyer.com/resou...tandards-fmvss
http://www.nhtsa.gov/DOT/NHTSA/Vehic.../TP-103-13.pdf
FMVSS = Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard. You'll notice it's a 30 page document detailing the testing of such systems.
Here's a general list of the FMVSS's, what the Federal Government regulates on automobiles.
http://www.carsafetylawyer.com/resou...tandards-fmvss
http://www.nhtsa.gov/DOT/NHTSA/Vehic.../TP-103-13.pdf
03-12-2011, 06:09 PM
#13
6th Gear Member
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: California
Posts: 10,468
It's classified as part of basic safety equipment, and it has to be retained. Unless you're going to tell me that you can remove the seat belts and headlights from your car too.
Just like with smog laws, you're not allowed to remove or alter the safety equipment, unless it's done in compliance with those same safety standards.
Besides, there's really no point to removing the heater core on any street car. The weight savings is virtually non existent, and you need a window defroster and heater from time to time.
Just like with smog laws, you're not allowed to remove or alter the safety equipment, unless it's done in compliance with those same safety standards.
Besides, there's really no point to removing the heater core on any street car. The weight savings is virtually non existent, and you need a window defroster and heater from time to time.
03-13-2011, 01:40 PM
#14
6th Gear Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 6,882
It's classified as part of basic safety equipment, and it has to be retained. Unless you're going to tell me that you can remove the seat belts and headlights from your car too.
Just like with smog laws, you're not allowed to remove or alter the safety equipment, unless it's done in compliance with those same safety standards.
Besides, there's really no point to removing the heater core on any street car. The weight savings is virtually non existent, and you need a window defroster and heater from time to time.
Just like with smog laws, you're not allowed to remove or alter the safety equipment, unless it's done in compliance with those same safety standards.
Besides, there's really no point to removing the heater core on any street car. The weight savings is virtually non existent, and you need a window defroster and heater from time to time.
for example, removing the catalytic converter is against federal law, not only for manufacturers, but also any person
heres the code
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/ht...2----000-.html
§ 7522. Prohibited acts
(3)
(A) for any person to remove or render inoperative any device or element of design installed on or in a motor vehicle or motor vehicle engine in compliance with regulations under this subchapter prior to its sale and delivery to the ultimate purchaser, or for any person knowingly to remove or render inoperative any such device or element of design after such sale and delivery to the ultimate purchaser
(A) for any person to remove or render inoperative any device or element of design installed on or in a motor vehicle or motor vehicle engine in compliance with regulations under this subchapter prior to its sale and delivery to the ultimate purchaser, or for any person knowingly to remove or render inoperative any such device or element of design after such sale and delivery to the ultimate purchaser
Last edited by 86 5.0L; 03-13-2011 at 01:43 PM.
03-14-2011, 05:05 AM
#15
6th Gear Member
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: California
Posts: 10,468
USC Title 49, which is the section for the FMVSS, basically says an individual person is exempt IF they receive documentation from a manufacturer or importer stating the vehicle conforms to the safety requirements OR if upon exercising "reasonable care" in regards to knowledge of the vehicles safety equipment, believe it conforms to the required safety regulations. Those are the only 2 situations in which Federal vehicle safety codes are not enforced/enforceable against an individual.
(b) Nonapplication.— This section does not apply to—
(1) the sale, offer for sale, or introduction or delivery for introduction in interstate commerce of a motor vehicle or motor vehicle equipment after the first purchase of the vehicle or equipment in good faith other than for resale;
(2) a person—
(A) establishing that the person had no reason to know, despite exercising reasonable care, that a motor vehicle or motor vehicle equipment does not comply with applicable motor vehicle safety standards prescribed under this chapter; or
(B) holding, without knowing about the noncompliance and before the vehicle or equipment is first purchased in good faith other than for resale, a certificate issued by a manufacturer or importer stating the vehicle or equipment complies with applicable standards prescribed under this chapter;
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/49...2----000-.html
So if you remove the heater and disable the defroster, then you KNOW that the vehicle doesn't conform to the safety standards, and you are therefore NOT exempt from making sure your vehicle meets those standards, ie USC Title 49 is then enforceable against you.
Which gets back to what I said in the very beginning, removing the heater core disables the defroster, which is illegal under Federal law. If someone else removed it and you didn't have reasonable cause to know, then you're not responsible.
(b) Nonapplication.— This section does not apply to—
(1) the sale, offer for sale, or introduction or delivery for introduction in interstate commerce of a motor vehicle or motor vehicle equipment after the first purchase of the vehicle or equipment in good faith other than for resale;
(2) a person—
(A) establishing that the person had no reason to know, despite exercising reasonable care, that a motor vehicle or motor vehicle equipment does not comply with applicable motor vehicle safety standards prescribed under this chapter; or
(B) holding, without knowing about the noncompliance and before the vehicle or equipment is first purchased in good faith other than for resale, a certificate issued by a manufacturer or importer stating the vehicle or equipment complies with applicable standards prescribed under this chapter;
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/49...2----000-.html
So if you remove the heater and disable the defroster, then you KNOW that the vehicle doesn't conform to the safety standards, and you are therefore NOT exempt from making sure your vehicle meets those standards, ie USC Title 49 is then enforceable against you.
Which gets back to what I said in the very beginning, removing the heater core disables the defroster, which is illegal under Federal law. If someone else removed it and you didn't have reasonable cause to know, then you're not responsible.
03-15-2011, 12:11 AM
#16
6th Gear Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 6,882
What you posted is certification from the Feds that the vehicle conforms to US safety laws and is allowed to be sold in the US at a dealership/private party level.
from your link
its saying you cant build a new car without a heater to sell or introduce to the US market after the FMVSS declared date.UNLESS you meet the non application portion that you posted.
it does not state ANYTHING about modifying or removing safety equipment for personal use
from your link
(a) General.—
(1) Except as provided in this section, sections 30113 and 30114 of this title, and subchapter III of this chapter, a person may not manufacture for sale, sell, offer for sale, introduce or deliver for introduction in interstate commerce, or import into the United States, any motor vehicle or motor vehicle equipment manufactured on or after the date an applicable motor vehicle safety standard prescribed under this chapter takes effect unless the vehicle or equipment complies with the standard and is covered by a certification issued under section 30115 of this title.
(1) Except as provided in this section, sections 30113 and 30114 of this title, and subchapter III of this chapter, a person may not manufacture for sale, sell, offer for sale, introduce or deliver for introduction in interstate commerce, or import into the United States, any motor vehicle or motor vehicle equipment manufactured on or after the date an applicable motor vehicle safety standard prescribed under this chapter takes effect unless the vehicle or equipment complies with the standard and is covered by a certification issued under section 30115 of this title.
it does not state ANYTHING about modifying or removing safety equipment for personal use
03-15-2011, 05:23 AM
#17
6th Gear Member
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: California
Posts: 10,468
That's one part of one section of that chapter. THAT particular portion of the code does deal what you said. The rest of the code deals with other things.
It also says that schools can't buy buses or 15 passenger vans unless they conform to the safety regulations.
Other parts also deal with penalties, and yet other parts list what authority the dept of transportation has and so on and so forth.
Window defrosters are considered part of basic vehicle safety equipment. Just like tail lights, head lights, seat belts etc. You're not legally allowed to operate a vehicle without an operating front windshield defroster.
Here's the part on penalties.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/49...5----000-.html
(a) Civil Penalties.—
(1) In general.— A person that violates any of section 30112, 30115, 30117 through 30122, 30123 (d),[1] 30125 (c), 30127, or 30141 through 30147, or a regulation prescribed thereunder, is liable to the United States Government for a civil penalty of not more than $5,000 for each violation. A separate violation occurs for each motor vehicle or item of motor vehicle equipment and for each failure or refusal to allow or perform an act required by any of those sections. The maximum penalty under this subsection for a related series of violations is $15,000,000.
It also says that schools can't buy buses or 15 passenger vans unless they conform to the safety regulations.
Other parts also deal with penalties, and yet other parts list what authority the dept of transportation has and so on and so forth.
Window defrosters are considered part of basic vehicle safety equipment. Just like tail lights, head lights, seat belts etc. You're not legally allowed to operate a vehicle without an operating front windshield defroster.
Here's the part on penalties.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/49...5----000-.html
(a) Civil Penalties.—
(1) In general.— A person that violates any of section 30112, 30115, 30117 through 30122, 30123 (d),[1] 30125 (c), 30127, or 30141 through 30147, or a regulation prescribed thereunder, is liable to the United States Government for a civil penalty of not more than $5,000 for each violation. A separate violation occurs for each motor vehicle or item of motor vehicle equipment and for each failure or refusal to allow or perform an act required by any of those sections. The maximum penalty under this subsection for a related series of violations is $15,000,000.
03-16-2011, 01:02 PM
#19
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location:
Posts: 32
the easiest way is to undo the 7 or 8 screws around the perimeter of the dash, flop the dash out and kindof rest it on the seats/steering column and then fight the lid off the heater box. alot of people start undoing every screw they see which turns into way more work. all you have to undo are the screws on the bottom of the glove box, one underneath each kick panel on each lower side of the pass/drivers dash and the screws underneath the snap in vent ( window defrost ) and under the speakers , i did this job in december and made way more work for myself than i should have. my car is non-ac but it had the ac heater core in it, the non-ac cores have straight inlet/outlet tubes and the ac's are offset, this is what screwed me up the most. good luck!-ps beer would make this job funner.
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