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you can do that very easily with the proper equipment, but you're not going to like the cost. CEL codes and a volt meter are all you need for your home diags.
the ford eec iv on the mustang is not capable of generating a data list through a scan tool, ford created what is known as a break out box to get data from all input sensors but even then you still need to hook a dvom into the pin ports to read various values
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Originally Posted by dudeboy
Be polite and cordial when you talk to them, as pissing off the guys that can help you is seldom a good idea.
rpm: look at your dashboard
IDC: irrelevant
MAP: your car doesnt have one
knock: or one of these
stop trying to be a smartass, all you need to know is what ODB-1 codes the car is throwing
Good data-log goes a long way in helping you to find out if everything works correctly and if you can tweak stuff like timing advance more with higher octane.
Codes are sometimes throwing false positives and sometimes even show something completely bogus, like in this case, where MAF (I had typo about MAP) were throwing "fuel pump" and "part throttle lean" codes.
Also, good luck finding if O2 sensor is working without data-log, if TPS is registering values in whole range, or if you have timing advance being cut few degrees because of high coolant/intake temperature or mild knocking.
Of course you can live without that, as people have lived with carburetor setups, but once you get all outputs side by side in a graph, you start to miss those options when you don't have them.
Good data-log goes a long way in helping you to find out if everything works correctly and if you can tweak stuff like timing advance more with higher octane.
Codes are sometimes throwing false positives and sometimes even show something completely bogus, like in this case, where MAF (I had typo about MAP) were throwing "fuel pump" and "part throttle lean" codes.
Also, good luck finding if O2 sensor is working without data-log, if TPS is registering values in whole range, or if you have timing advance being cut few degrees because of high coolant/intake temperature or mild knocking.
Of course you can live without that, as people have lived with carburetor setups, but once you get all outputs side by side in a graph, you start to miss those options when you don't have them.
Wow, where do i BEGIN???? You have some serious misconceptions about how troubleshooting in the industry often goes..............first you need to understand the difference between input devices vs output devices and their functions, you have a jumbled mess of incorrect conclusions drawn above.........in todays vehicles you can't control timing nor is it even adjustable anymore, it is purely controlled by the ecm and unless you had access to the programming files and or a way to change the mapping, you are stuck with what the factory programmed it with unless of course you have a stand alone to work around factory parameters to rewrite the soft memory.......as FAR as false positives go , that is often a error created by the user who incorrectly runs the koeo/koer tests not in accordance with the way it is designed= operator error............as far as NEEDING data logging to determine if o2 is working, don't OFTEN NEED SUCH, WHY you ask??, number 1, often times the customer doesn't wish to pay for the lengthy time it takes to run what we call a "snapshot" if you understand how obd2 functions you don't need to often record o2 operation, looking at the min max values recorded in the failure mode will tell you if an input sensor such as an o2 is on it's way out, remember o2 sensors don't perform any task they just measure oxygen content in the exhaust which are reflected by a high or low voltage signal sent to and interpreted by the ecm, in obd 2 you can see voltage values on a screen, in obd 1 you must tap the signal wire and use a dvom to monitor such.......Furthermore, it's inputs that are viewed by the ecm and relayed to the scanner screen and graphed not outputs,(in some cases depending on the scan tool outputs can be viewed and logged) anyway, outputs devices are such things as injectors, IAC MOTOR, egr valve, ect ect, they perform a task...........anyway I COULD GO ON AND ON, stop talking about all this need for data logging on your ride, what you need to do is understand the description and operation more so of the eec iv system, then you will be better prepared to tackle the challange of repairing it at hand. the eec iv system is not that complicated, you don't need all those extra's to troubleshoot it, which is why today there are a lot of stupid pre-madonna so called techs out there nowadays, they expect the ecm to do all the troubleshooting.
I think the whole prob here is, you are hoping there is some magical tool that exists for your vehicle that 'll plug in to the obd 1 port and act as if it were giving you obd 2 protocol so you don't have to go out and buy the proper test equipment to diagnose your cars probs.......AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN my friend!!!!!! even on obd 2 cars I use all the fancy test equipment to arrive at a accurate diagnosis, the scan tool rarely ever gives one all that is needed to say, yup that's the prob!!!!
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by dudeboy
Be polite and cordial when you talk to them, as pissing off the guys that can help you is seldom a good idea.
Wow, where do i BEGIN???? You have some serious misconceptions about how troubleshooting in the industry often goes..............first you need to understand the difference between input devices vs output devices and their functions, you have a jumbled mess of incorrect conclusions drawn above.........in todays vehicles you can't control timing nor is it even adjustable anymore, it is purely controlled by the ecm and unless you had access to the programming files and or a way to change the mapping, you are stuck with what the factory programmed it with unless of course you have a stand alone to work around factory parameters to rewrite the soft memory.......
That's why I asked in one of the threads if base timing can be off and would it even make difference, because on most cars you can go from 5deg BTDC to like 10, 15, 20 and the ECM will relearn that something is wrong and will compensate accordingly. But I later received the answer that by going to 93 octane I can adjust the timing to more aggressive one, so it seems that Mustang ECM will not compensate for it.
For other cars, yes, I use software like EcuFlash to adjust hi and lo octane timing and fuel maps, and for turbo applications there are even anti lag maps that adjust the timing to get the desired spool.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjr46
as FAR as false positives go , that is often a error created by the user who incorrectly runs the koeo/koer tests not in accordance with the way it is designed= operator error............as far as NEEDING data logging to determine if o2 is working, don't OFTEN NEED SUCH, WHY you ask??, number 1, often times the customer doesn't wish to pay for the lengthy time it takes to run what we call a "snapshot" if you understand how obd2 functions you don't need to often record o2 operation, looking at the min max values recorded in the failure mode will tell you if an input sensor such as an o2 is on it's way out, remember o2 sensors don't perform any task they just measure oxygen content in the exhaust which are reflected by a high or low voltage signal sent to and interpreted by the ecm, in obd 2 you can see voltage values on a screen, in obd 1 you must tap the signal wire and use a dvom to monitor such.......
I think the problem is that you have to pay VERY much for an OBD2 diagnostics here. It's like 50$ per session here. But all the times I've ran into some issues I've found that it's easier to take a look at the data-log than to go through lengthy checks. And with O2 it usually takes a very long time for CEL to appear. All that time you'll get bad gas mileage and, usually, lean readings.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjr46
anyway, outputs devices are such things as injectors, IAC MOTOR, egr valve, ect ect, they perform a task...........anyway I COULD GO ON AND ON, stop talking about all this need for data logging on your ride
Yes, I agree with you, with NA car you can go very wrong with all adjustments and you won't feel a thing. Heck my car was running lean without even lighting up a CEL. But with that low load/speed twitching I would still like to see what the timing/IDC/O2/RPM/TPS show before I start swapping plug wires, cleaning MAF for 10x times just in case I might have cleaned it badly, swapping throttle bodies and so on.
It's easier to narrow down all the sensors that might be at fault and to check if thei min/max values are in the acceptable limits, than to go and unbolt every thing.
Sometimes it helps, I don't say it's an easy answer to everything.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjr46
I think the whole prob here is, you are hoping there is some magical tool that exists for your vehicle that 'll plug in to the obd 1 port and act as if it were giving you obd 2 protocol so you don't have to go out and buy the proper test equipment to diagnose your cars probs.......AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN my friend!!!!!! even on obd 2 cars I use all the fancy test equipment to arrive at a accurate diagnosis, the scan tool rarely ever gives one all that is needed to say, yup that's the prob!!!!
Well, the pure OBD2 is quite limiting, but with MUT3 you can pretty much get hardcore test equipment for 20ish dollars if you have laptop and OBD2 cable, and I was hoping there is a dealership protocol over Ford OBD1 port that would allow to do that sort of data-logging as well. You told me I couldn't, then it somehow turned out into flame-war again
So, anyway, since I have no logs or CELs, I still have that low speed hesitation/twitching problem that will take some major PITA with removing bunch of stuff to find the culprit
Well, the pure OBD2 is quite limiting, but with MUT3 you can pretty much get hardcore test equipment for 20ish dollars if you have laptop and OBD2 cable, and I was hoping there is a dealership protocol over Ford OBD1 port that would allow to do that sort of data-logging as well. You told me I couldn't, then it somehow turned out into flame-war again
So, anyway, since I have no logs or CELs, I still have that low speed hesitation/twitching problem that will take some major PITA with removing bunch of stuff to find the culprit
Look,... the only comment worth addressing here is the above, for one no one is flamming you, if you think I am, YOUR WRONG, I'm trying to teach you how to address the issues with your ride at hand, but it seems you wish to view data on the screen to find your problem while at the same time you lack the proper equipment to see such, the only way you'll ever have such a possibility on a eec iv system is to purchase a standalone tuner, such as a tweecer, or moates quarter horse ect ect and plug into the j3 test port on the eec iv, these are all aftermarket tuners, other than that there is "no" such thing you hope for,............if you understood what can cause the hesitations/misfire the first thing/tool i'D GRAB would be our modis labscope and switch on the occiliscope function to view KV/FIRING VOLTAGES OF EACH CYLINDER, and look at the parade patterns of each cylinder to see where the fault lies, now that is how hesitaions are quickly found/narrowed down, not looking at the info you desire, but that's assuming there are no vaccum leaks, and no codes are present to lead you toward a malfunctioning sensor such as tps or maf..............as far as OBD2 being limiting I agree, that's why there are two sides to an ecm, the obd 2 side which is mandated here in the US by federal law and the manufactorer specific side, we have software to view both, so i'M NOT LIMITED, And on the manufactorer side I have bidirectional function/control of outputs, viewing the obd 2 side is always a must and first, then go to manfactorer side with appropriate software, often I find the obd 2 side hasn't logged a code where the manufactorer side has, ANYWAY nuff said about obd 2 , your ride doesn't have it so no more talk about wishing it had it, that won't solve a prob, what I stated above about a stand alone is as close as you'll get to what you hope for
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by dudeboy
Be polite and cordial when you talk to them, as pissing off the guys that can help you is seldom a good idea.
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the eec iv system is not that complicated, you don't need all those extra's to troubleshoot it, which is why today there are a lot of stupid pre-madonna so called techs out there nowadays, they expect the ecm to do all the troubleshooting.
