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2000AZ5.0GT 06-22-2014 02:32 AM

5.0 Oddities
 
So, I threw out the plan to keep my car stock as can be, and eventually it will be a HCI fox, shooting for around 280hp at the wheels.

So, I'm starting with the supporting stuff first, 130A alternator, 3 core radiator, dual high flow fans (though due to some of the reviews, I might be swapping that out for a high flow 16"), high flow water pump (most likely), and probably some random stuff here and there.

Living in AZ is torturous on cars during the summer, but luckily I have a garage, and a daily driver, so I've been doing most the work during the week, after work and all that jazz.

Now to the Crux. No matter what I do, I cannot get a stock length serpentine belt around the pulleys using the stock routing. Obviously, before I took the belt off it was by definition already running, but having run a wire/tape along the route, I found that what is existing is 95 inches long, quite a bit longer than the 91 and 1/8th inch thats supposed to be there from the factory.

Then, when I took the alternator off, I found that the new 130 amp wouldn't fit, it was literally too short. Turns out the engine had the wrong Alternator/Smog pump bracket.

Thank god it's a mustang, I was able to find a stock bracket online and picked it up today, same day that I noticed, but after installing that, I still can't get the stock serp belt on.

So, to my question, is there a stamp or something I can look for on the block to verify that the engine did in fact come in my car from the factory?

Maxwelhse 06-22-2014 10:08 AM

A picture can probably help us verify your belt setup faster than anything. You might want to measure the pulley sizes on the accessories too in case some of the mounts are correct but the accessories are not. Same with the crank pulley.

Another thing on my mind is whether or not this is a 3G alt swap. If it is... they don't fit in the stock bracket without modifications. If you got it to fit and didn't grind on anything you probably STILL don't have the right bracket.

Also, with those cooling mods in mind I'd STRONGLY suggest adding a heater core restriction orifice. Probably a good idea to bite the bullet and plan on putting a new core in it anyhow (pain in the ass job) AND an orifice.

2000AZ5.0GT 06-22-2014 08:47 PM

So, from looking into it, I highly suspect that the engine is out of a 88'-92' Lincoln Continental MK VII, the brackets for the AC, power steering, and alternator were identical to pictures I found online of the Lincoln set up, which to me, is even more reason to do a HCI build.

Eventually, I'm going to buy either a reman block or a dart block, and get the correct accessory drive, as I think it would be dishonest to sell the car with the current engine and not disclose such info.

As far as the bracket goes, turns out the guy that had it had already made the modifications for the 3G, so yeah, I didn't need to modify the bracket.

Ended up going with a 94" belt, seems to work okay. Still don't have the fans wired up.

Do you have a link to the restrictor? I don't currently have the heater core connected, I believe it was bypassed a while ago, and I haven't re-connected it.

Here are a few pictures, and a video.

http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/j...IMG_0050-1.jpg
http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/j...IMG_0043-2.jpg
http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/j...IMG_0037-4.jpg
http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/j...h_IMG_0074.jpg

Maxwelhse 06-22-2014 11:32 PM

2 Attachment(s)
Looked like a Fox setup to me at first and then I finally found it (they're pretty close)! A/C bracket AND P/S bracket aren't Mustang (or at least my year). On a Mustang the PS casting bolts to the A/C bracket. For some reason (that makes me want to slap Ford) they tooled up unqiue brackets for BOTH of those parts for whatever car that motor came from instead of just a new A/C bracket and relocating the holes that P/S casting mounts to. Never mind the fact that your arrangement obviously fits in a Mustang... Stupid engineering...

I've attached some pictures of my FEAD. The before paint picture shows it more easily. Your upper radiator hose is "funky" too and looks kinked? Maybe its just the angle of the picture? I always thought the Lincoln motor was exactly the same. Apparently not! Maybe its not even a Lincoln motor? Does it have an HO firing order (verified at the distributor)?

As far as the restrictor (and if your core is by-passed its leaking... I'd bet money on it) I made mine out of a 2" slug of 304 stainless round bar (can't remember the exact size.. 3/4", 5/8"?) and drilled a 5/16" hole through the middle of it. It installs on the inlet side of the core. The 5/16" hole is just fine for summer driving when you get some haze on the windshield at night, but here in the midwest you'll barely have enough heat in the winter to keep the windshield clear in 30F temps and will freeze your ass off (based on my experience with the *1* time I winter drove my car when I moved and 30F here in the winter is actually pretty warm). You shouldn't have a problem out in the desert though!

You can buy a plastic/rubber one here for $20:

http://www.latemodelrestoration.com/...low-Restrictor

A drill bit and SS bar stock is cheaper and isn't going to fall apart any time soon! ;)

rmodel65 06-23-2014 10:33 PM

the mark 7 motor is exactly the same internally as the mustang 5.0ho.

the heater core is a job if you need it done. it will take all day and you can do a fast freddy way(that way you dont need to tear into the ac system) you make a small cut on the heater case and pull the core out. if you do put a new core in only buy a motorcraft core and run the restrictor and test it for pressure before installing it.

Maxwelhse 06-24-2014 01:33 PM

Good advice. I put a Robinair unit in mine though as I've had good luck with their parts in the past (FoMoCo doesn't "make" the core anyhow) and it was a good quality.

The heater core job sucks big time... I wouldn't call the "fast freddy" way "fast". :) That's how I did mine and if I had entire chunk of time to work on it I would say it would have taken me 2 full days. At least there are LOADS of good write ups about it.

2000AZ5.0GT 06-24-2014 03:02 PM

To be honest, in AZ, I doubt I'd ever need to actually run the heater, I don't recall ever using it in any of the cars I've owned. I know it can function like an additional radiator by running the A/C on hot, but hopefully the $600 dollars I've spent on the radiator/fan set up will keep the car running cool.

Also, this is a garaged baby,she's never going to be out in bad weather as long as I own her.

And I assumed the internals between the Lincoln Engine and mustang engine were the same, the only issue is that it leaves me in the dark as far as the true mileage on the engine. I know the body only has 9x,000 miles on it, but the engine has some unknown number.

Kind of a perfect excuse to throw a turbo on it, or throw a HCI and not care, since it's not my daily driver, I'm going to have to throw a new engine in at some point if I ever plan on selling, so might as well have extra fun in the meantime.

Maxwelhse 06-24-2014 06:45 PM

Mine is a fair weather toy too (also garaged) but I don't treat it like a rare jewel or anything. I drive it to work or out and about sometimes and if it rains and gets muggy the heated defrost is nice (probably not much of an issue in AZ either). For me, the fact that it should work and doesn't would drive me nuts. The concept of cooling the car with the heater core is with the HEAT on, not the AC (that will actually make things worse). It doesn't do all that much anyhow.

I'm still curious to know if your motor is running an HO firing order. That would pretty much close the book on it being a Mark VII motor as far as I would be concerned. I personally wouldn't care about it having a Lincoln motor but I'd probably wrap Mustang brackets on it to make life easier (so anyone can put a belt on it at any time).

2000AZ5.0GT 06-24-2014 09:47 PM

It doesn't have the HO firing order, I don't think. Does that imply that it is from a Lincoln? Or not? Cause the Lincoln's look like they have the HO firing order.

Maxwelhse 06-24-2014 09:50 PM

That implies that it is NOT from a Lincoln and not an HO motor. Could be a truck engine or something.

2000AZ5.0GT 06-24-2014 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maxwelhse (Post 8402381)
That implies that it is NOT from a Lincoln and not an HO motor. Could be a truck engine or something.


F150's had the same accessory brackets as the mustang. The only brackets that match are the Lincoln's.

But, from what I understand, the only thing that matters regarding that is the cam.

So, to verify, if I get a cam intended for the H.O engine, I can use the H.O. firing order?

NYstang 06-24-2014 10:49 PM

What is the firing order? The lincoln mark VII came with the HO from 88+ in all models, and 87 the HO was used in the LSC only. The LoPo 5.0 was used in the 79-91 Crown Vic, Grand Marquis, and towncar. It had a different firing order from the 5.0, E6 heads, different intake, and flat top pistons with no valve relief (due to this, a stock HO cam is the biggest you can safely use, IIRC) Swapping in the HO cam is easy enough and changes the firing order, so you just adjust the plug wires accordingly. Check your ECM, since it should have a LoPo one with that engine.

2000AZ5.0GT 06-25-2014 12:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NYstang (Post 8402423)
What is the firing order? The lincoln mark VII came with the HO from 88+ in all models, and 87 the HO was used in the LSC only. The LoPo 5.0 was used in the 79-91 Crown Vic, Grand Marquis, and towncar. It had a different firing order from the 5.0, E6 heads, different intake, and flat top pistons with no valve relief (due to this, a stock HO cam is the biggest you can safely use, IIRC) Swapping in the HO cam is easy enough and changes the firing order, so you just adjust the plug wires accordingly. Check your ECM, since it should have a LoPo one with that engine.

The firing order is the same as the Non H.O. 302 Windsor, starting with 1-5, I only verified the first two, since the only two firing orders used by windsors are the 351 variety, and the older 302 variety.

if you're right, and the largest cam I can run safely is the H.O. Cam, then the most reasonable thing to do for now would be to go the turbo route, which I really would prefer not to do.

The other option would be to start an engine build, get a reman or new block, and eventually put a decent set of heads on it, throw a nice mild cam in it, and then throw the trick flow intake on it, and just drop that in. That's personally my favorite option, minus the money part, as it means I have to get a cherry picker and an engine stand, and living in an apartment, that's kind of hard to do.

Maxwelhse 06-25-2014 04:56 PM

Someone is welcome to correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe the LoPo motor got forged pistons either and the HO did.

What I would probably do is not worry about it too much and build the motor you really want on a stand and just swap the entire thing at some point. That's what I plan to do with my correct HO motor anyhow (Boss blocks are just too inexpensive to refuse).

...that theory also opens the door to an equally appealing Ranger 302 swap with my stock-ish HO motor.

2000AZ5.0GT 06-25-2014 11:20 PM

Well, unfortunately if I did do a build the way I wanted to, it would be a turbo 408 with a Dart Iron Eagle, Trick Flow top end, and a Garrett Turbo (... and not just because I used to work for Honeywell (Honeywell owns Garrett))

As you can imagine, that's kind of an expensive build, and probably one that I'm going to do when I own a house and don't have to worry about spoiling the garage.

But, the Ford Racing X-302 Crate engine, for 3.5k? sheeeet, I can do that whenever and get free shipping/freight to boot (LMR is pretty sweet that way). Plus a 2 year warranty on 340bhp (probably overhyped, but still)?

No brainer, probably going to do that before the end of the year, probably before September TBH.



Though, on a separate note, do all convertibles have the wiring for the 6 speakers? or do 4 speaker conv's only have the wires running to the 4 speakers?

Maxwelhse 06-26-2014 06:21 PM

For $3500 I'd skip the X-302 and just buy a Boss block and build it from there. The X-302 is just a regular 302 block just like what you have now. It's even a USED block (who knows what Ford calls "remanufactured"). In a 'vert I don't think I'd want to build like a 1500hp motor anyhow so the Boss block would probably be a good fit for your application.

As far as your speakers, I couldn't tell ya. It's SUPER easy to add the speaker wiring though. It's all fairly accessible. Watch the mounting depth of your door speakers though as the Fox doors are notoriously thin in that area due to the window track being right behind it.

2000AZ5.0GT 06-26-2014 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maxwelhse (Post 8403146)
For $3500 I'd skip the X-302 and just buy a Boss block and build it from there. The X-302 is just a regular 302 block just like what you have now. It's even a USED block (who knows what Ford calls "remanufactured"). In a 'vert I don't think I'd want to build like a 1500hp motor anyhow so the Boss block would probably be a good fit for your application.

As far as your speakers, I couldn't tell ya. It's SUPER easy to add the speaker wiring though. It's all fairly accessible. Watch the mounting depth of your door speakers though as the Fox doors are notoriously thin in that area due to the window track being right behind it.

Isn't the boss block like 4700 dollars? And I'd still have to price out a top end to put on it, right?

My last 'vert ran bottom 11's, so I wouldn't mind a mid-low 12 second fox, and I think 310-320whp would get me to that point, from what I've read.

Maxwelhse 06-26-2014 08:51 PM

$4700!?!?!? No... $1740 at Summit right now... I've seen them down as low as $1400 before if you shop around/wait for a sale. Yes, it's an empty block so you have to load it.

If you only want 310hp I'm curious why you're looking for an aftermarket block anyhow. That's well within the reach of a normal factory 302 block.

2000AZ5.0GT 06-26-2014 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maxwelhse (Post 8403195)
$4700!?!?!? No... $1740 at Summit right now... I've seen them down as low as $1400 before if you shop around/wait for a sale. Yes, it's an empty block so you have to load it.

If you only want 310hp I'm curious why you're looking for an aftermarket block anyhow. That's well within the reach of a normal factory 302 block.

Because I have no idea what car the engine that's in it came out of. It feels strong, but I have absolutely no way of knowing that it doesn't have 250k or more miles, could already be a reman block, there's really no way to tell at this point, since the engine bay is currently closer to a frankencar than it is to a stock mustang.

so, the biggest aspect of it, for me, is drivability, one of the reasons the X-302 looks so damn good, it's a mild street engine with a 2yr warranty. Warranty alone makes me want to pull the trigger.

Although, after listening to a couple z303 Cammed cars on youtube, I may have to rethink a few things.

I mean, to put it bluntly, it would be 100% dishonest of me to sell the car as is without disclosing that the engine is from an unknown vehicle, so dropping a crate in there would allow me to skirt past the issue altogether with any potential buyer, if anything it would probably actually add slightly to the value amongst enthusiasts.

Disclaimer: I'm not looking to sell the car, but you never know what life decides to throw at you, so I'd like to be prepared for any type of situation.

Maxwelhse 06-26-2014 10:11 PM

The block is all the same if its a roller motor. Easy to find out. You were talking about Dart blocks and dual turbos so I'm kinda of confused. That's very different from a stock block 302. I understand the appeal of the crate motor.


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