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Old 09-26-2014, 04:22 PM   #21
uedlose
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pushing up the cid of the engine is gone to cause you to have to run a bigger t6 frame turbo. This is gone to make packaging much harder and most kits are also set up for t4 frame turbos not t6 frame turbos so that is gone to make that even more $$$ with a custom kit.
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Old 09-26-2014, 06:57 PM   #22
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I don't understand your point. Why would the Op need to move up to a larger turbo? A T4 style (square flange) turbo should be able to move over 50 pounds of air per minute at over 20 PSI no problem. Obliviously the T4 won't max the motor out but it should still make plenty of power. I'm not picking a fight just curious. I haven't done a turbo car since my SRT4 about four years ago.
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Old 09-26-2014, 08:10 PM   #23
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I'm also not going to be pushing it very hard. 480rwhp and super reliable is my target, it's a convertible, and I probably don't plan on running a cage (subframes yes, a full cage, probably not), so I don't even think going to a bigger turbo would be a good idea, I wouldn't be able to hook up to save my life, and if I did, I'd probably break something.

So yeah, the turbo I've picked out is the Garrett GT4088R, which has an A/R of 0.72, and an inlet of 63.5mm, and the T4 housing. I still get a discount since I worked at Honeywell, so it seems like a reasonable route to take.

I have a friend who runs a turbo 5.0 in his RX-7, and built the setup from scratch, so I'd really like to enlist his help in this entire thing.
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Old 09-27-2014, 07:54 AM   #24
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I don't understand your point. Why would the Op need to move up to a larger turbo? A T4 style (square flange) turbo should be able to move over 50 pounds of air per minute at over 20 PSI no problem. Obliviously the T4 won't max the motor out but it should still make plenty of power. I'm not picking a fight just curious. I haven't done a turbo car since my SRT4 about four years ago.
the T4 is and will be a restriction on a 363. The turbine flow is gone to be the plug. 50 lbs of air a min. is not much. take a look at a few turbine compressor maps and see where it falls. Borg Warner may have a few up.They are not real easy to find.
I did not say it would not work. But it is far from ideal to run for high HP numbers. where is he gone to be shifting this thing 5000 RPM? Remember the V8 moves more air then the 4cly. sooner due to more cid. A pt88 turbo has a larger t4 housing but even it at high rpms will hold the 363 back put a t6 frame on it and it would pick up HP just from better exhaust flow.
I far from know everything about turbos but I do know it can be a problem and will hurt performance. If you can find a map and plot it you will see I am right. But with him not wanting big HP # that will help. But my thoughts are if I am gone to spend the $$$$ that he is why would I be happy with lesser performance. But that is me.
OP, that turbo is small for your CID. I would run a compressor that moves 100 lbs of air at a minimum. All I can say is there is a compressor map there plot your engine and the rpm you are gone to turn that thing and see. Or do yourself a favor and call a turbo MFG. and talk with them. But hey it is your money if you want to try it and spend that kind of money. it is on you. It will spool right now and have stump pulling torque then it is gone to fall off like dropping it out of a air plane at high rpms.
Also if you only want 480 rwhp you should be able to get that with just a NA 363 or real darn close
I have a turbo car I have been fighting 2/1 back pressure issues since I built it due to a poor flowing turbine side which is a T4 and on center with a 76 mm turbine wheel. at 15psi of boost I am seeing 30 psi of back pressure at the inlet of the turbine housing which is not real good. does it run good yes could it run much faster with a better turbine oh hell yes but I have to work with what I got now at the moment. I only have 306 cid. but I want to go fast so I always want better. I am close to my goal with it which is a full weight street car I can drive that is running 9s on pump gas.
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Old 09-27-2014, 12:51 PM   #25
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the T4 is and will be a restriction on a 363. The turbine flow is gone to be the plug. 50 lbs of air a min. is not much. take a look at a few turbine compressor maps and see where it falls. Borg Warner may have a few up.They are not real easy to find.
I did not say it would not work. But it is far from ideal to run for high HP numbers. where is he gone to be shifting this thing 5000 RPM? Remember the V8 moves more air then the 4cly. sooner due to more cid. A pt88 turbo has a larger t4 housing but even it at high rpms will hold the 363 back put a t6 frame on it and it would pick up HP just from better exhaust flow.
I far from know everything about turbos but I do know it can be a problem and will hurt performance. If you can find a map and plot it you will see I am right. But with him not wanting big HP # that will help. But my thoughts are if I am gone to spend the $$$$ that he is why would I be happy with lesser performance. But that is me.
OP, that turbo is small for your CID. I would run a compressor that moves 100 lbs of air at a minimum. All I can say is there is a compressor map there plot your engine and the rpm you are gone to turn that thing and see. Or do yourself a favor and call a turbo MFG. and talk with them. But hey it is your money if you want to try it and spend that kind of money. it is on you. It will spool right now and have stump pulling torque then it is gone to fall off like dropping it out of a air plane at high rpms.
Also if you only want 480 rwhp you should be able to get that with just a NA 363 or real darn close
I have a turbo car I have been fighting 2/1 back pressure issues since I built it due to a poor flowing turbine side which is a T4 and on center with a 76 mm turbine wheel. at 15psi of boost I am seeing 30 psi of back pressure at the inlet of the turbine housing which is not real good. does it run good yes could it run much faster with a better turbine oh hell yes but I have to work with what I got now at the moment. I only have 306 cid. but I want to go fast so I always want better. I am close to my goal with it which is a full weight street car I can drive that is running 9s on pump gas.
Like I said my man not picking a fight, just picking your brain. And I agree with everything you said above for a strictly drag application. Bigger is always better. I said in the first post that the motor wouldn't be maxxed out on the T4. My experience was with a Mitsubishi TDo5 swap on my SRT-4 that moved ruffly 40 pounds a minute@20 psi. It would spool much quicker than the larger 50 trim guys and the races would always be very close because, Me with the smaller quicker spooling turbo. I would be in my power band a little quicker than the larger turbo that would run the same times as me but would have a higher trap speed. I ran a best of 11.7@118.5. Not bad for a wrong wheel drive street car. fastest trap it ever had was 120.6. I also found that for road racing the smaller turbos were much better for that type of racing because the turbo was there right now and you didn't have the on-off switch feeling of the bigger turbos. If I were to ever turbo the 95 stang I'd run at least 88MM and shoot for something in the 7-800Hp range. But My car is being built as a full on track car and will never see the streets. So the bigger the better! Good luck with the 9s. I expect to be running similar times this spring on the 300 shot. My builder expects somewhere between 9.3 and 9.5. on the spray and mid 10s on motor.
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Old 09-27-2014, 02:54 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by uedlose View Post
the T4 is and will be a restriction on a 363. The turbine flow is gone to be the plug. 50 lbs of air a min. is not much. take a look at a few turbine compressor maps and see where it falls. Borg Warner may have a few up.They are not real easy to find.
I did not say it would not work. But it is far from ideal to run for high HP numbers. where is he gone to be shifting this thing 5000 RPM? Remember the V8 moves more air then the 4cly. sooner due to more cid. A pt88 turbo has a larger t4 housing but even it at high rpms will hold the 363 back put a t6 frame on it and it would pick up HP just from better exhaust flow.
I far from know everything about turbos but I do know it can be a problem and will hurt performance. If you can find a map and plot it you will see I am right. But with him not wanting big HP # that will help. But my thoughts are if I am gone to spend the $$$$ that he is why would I be happy with lesser performance. But that is me.
OP, that turbo is small for your CID. I would run a compressor that moves 100 lbs of air at a minimum. All I can say is there is a compressor map there plot your engine and the rpm you are gone to turn that thing and see. Or do yourself a favor and call a turbo MFG. and talk with them. But hey it is your money if you want to try it and spend that kind of money. it is on you. It will spool right now and have stump pulling torque then it is gone to fall off like dropping it out of a air plane at high rpms.
Also if you only want 480 rwhp you should be able to get that with just a NA 363 or real darn close
I have a turbo car I have been fighting 2/1 back pressure issues since I built it due to a poor flowing turbine side which is a T4 and on center with a 76 mm turbine wheel. at 15psi of boost I am seeing 30 psi of back pressure at the inlet of the turbine housing which is not real good. does it run good yes could it run much faster with a better turbine oh hell yes but I have to work with what I got now at the moment. I only have 306 cid. but I want to go fast so I always want better. I am close to my goal with it which is a full weight street car I can drive that is running 9s on pump gas.

I see all of these Turbo's saying they support up to 650-800hp. If the 363 puts down 350-360rwhp N/A, shouldn't I be able to be to hit 480rwhp on like, 10-11PSI ?

Now, your back pressure numbers, is that the pressure as the throttle blade closes? or are you talking about just the pressure in the exhaust side all the time?

The smallest T6 frame turbo's look way too big, with 91mm and larger? That seems insane for a street car.
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Old 09-28-2014, 08:35 AM   #27
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I see all of these Turbo's saying they support up to 650-800hp. If the 363 puts down 350-360rwhp N/A, shouldn't I be able to be to hit 480rwhp on like, 10-11PSI ?

Now, your back pressure numbers, is that the pressure as the throttle blade closes? or are you talking about just the pressure in the exhaust side all the time?

The smallest T6 frame turbo's look way too big, with 91mm and larger? That seems insane for a street car.
And the turbos do support that. But turbos are sized to a engines CID and performance goals. It is not this supports 500 hp and then you put it on. it needs to be sized to the engine and goal. lets say a 57mm turbo on a 4cly. makes 400 hp ( numbers just made up) it does that at 6000 rpm. Ok that turbo makes 400 HP just like they said. NOW lets put that turbo on a 363 guess what it makes 400 hp just like they said but it does it at 3500 and you want to spin the engine to 6500. But you find you are now over spinning the turbo because it is not the right size for your engine it cant breathe and the the things runs like a turd. or worst you start damaging parts.
Atmospheric pressure is 14.7 psi, and your engine makes 300 hp na, now you push 14 psi of boost to that and you did what? you doubled the pressure on the engine so in a PERFECT WORLD it should have doubled your HP. Some times it does, some times it dont, other times it will make even more on a VERY efficient engine with a VVT. So that is a real good guide. But yes I think you will make that kind of power easy.
They make large frame turbos in sizes much smaller then that as far as compressor size. look around some more and read read and read some more on turbos. Understanding turbos and how they work and what can be done with them is a BIG learning curve. But yes T6 turbos are big.
My differential numbers I read at 3 places 1 the intake 2 the inlet of the turbine housing where it bolts to the header pipes before the turbine 3 I take a reading after the turbine in the exhaust. The reading is with me on the gas making 15psi at the intake at the header side/inlet side of the turbine housing the side that would make the turbo spin I am seeing 30 psi. after the turbine the down pipe side I use to see 8 psi but I got that fixed with a 3.5 exhaust pipe and now I see .5
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Old 09-28-2014, 05:22 PM   #28
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And the turbos do support that. But turbos are sized to a engines CID and performance goals. It is not this supports 500 hp and then you put it on. it needs to be sized to the engine and goal. lets say a 57mm turbo on a 4cly. makes 400 hp ( numbers just made up) it does that at 6000 rpm. Ok that turbo makes 400 HP just like they said. NOW lets put that turbo on a 363 guess what it makes 400 hp just like they said but it does it at 3500 and you want to spin the engine to 6500. But you find you are now over spinning the turbo because it is not the right size for your engine it cant breathe and the the things runs like a turd. or worst you start damaging parts.
Atmospheric pressure is 14.7 psi, and your engine makes 300 hp na, now you push 14 psi of boost to that and you did what? you doubled the pressure on the engine so in a PERFECT WORLD it should have doubled your HP. Some times it does, some times it dont, other times it will make even more on a VERY efficient engine with a VVT. So that is a real good guide. But yes I think you will make that kind of power easy.
They make large frame turbos in sizes much smaller then that as far as compressor size. look around some more and read read and read some more on turbos. Understanding turbos and how they work and what can be done with them is a BIG learning curve. But yes T6 turbos are big.
My differential numbers I read at 3 places 1 the intake 2 the inlet of the turbine housing where it bolts to the header pipes before the turbine 3 I take a reading after the turbine in the exhaust. The reading is with me on the gas making 15psi at the intake at the header side/inlet side of the turbine housing the side that would make the turbo spin I am seeing 30 psi. after the turbine the down pipe side I use to see 8 psi but I got that fixed with a 3.5 exhaust pipe and now I see .5

I know several years ago when I was really into it, there really wasn't a way to measure the actual amount of air moving through an engine.

would it be wise to wait until I have the 363 dyno'd to actually have some kind of guidance as to what turbo to go with?

I'll be running a catt'ed system, mostly for noise, so I'm sure that will have several effects on everything.

Right now, the engine that sits there has some kind of valve float above 4,000RPM, pretty pathetic if you ask me, so we'll see what happens when there's an engine in there that actually is thought out, instead of some dump from a lincoln.
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Old 09-29-2014, 12:04 AM   #29
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with the right parts, most are making on the low side 425 rwhp-475 rwhp easily out of a 363.......choose the right h/c/i and supporting mods and there you have your hp goal......put 302 parts on it and yes you'll need a turbo to make up for it...build the 363 first run it and dyno it and see where it's at....if you are going forced induction no matter what then choose the right cc piston and head for compression that is boost friendly
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Old 09-29-2014, 07:31 AM   #30
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I know several years ago when I was really into it, there really wasn't a way to measure the actual amount of air moving through an engine.

would it be wise to wait until I have the 363 dyno'd to actually have some kind of guidance as to what turbo to go with?

I'll be running a catt'ed system, mostly for noise, so I'm sure that will have several effects on everything.

Right now, the engine that sits there has some kind of valve float above 4,000RPM, pretty pathetic if you ask me, so we'll see what happens when there's an engine in there that actually is thought out, instead of some dump from a lincoln.
I would call a turbo MFG. talk with them on the size and HP you want to make at what rpm and tell them you want to stay with a t4 flange. A pt88 will work and so with a gt4788 with a t4 flange. Borg Warner also has turbos with t4 flange that will work a gts76 would also work but would have a smaller t4 turbine housing on it. or you could drop back on the cid some and solve most of your concerns and still make big HP numbers with a turbo.
Like said with the HP you want to make I really dont know why you are gone turbo. when a N/A 363 would get you real close or meet your goals anyway.
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Old 09-29-2014, 10:38 PM   #31
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with the right parts, most are making on the low side 425 rwhp-475 rwhp easily out of a 363.......choose the right h/c/i and supporting mods and there you have your hp goal......put 302 parts on it and yes you'll need a turbo to make up for it...build the 363 first run it and dyno it and see where it's at....if you are going forced induction no matter what then choose the right cc piston and head for compression that is boost friendly
I think I'm going to go with, from FordStrokers the

Dart Liberator 363
- 20cc dished pistons
- Forged RPM Crank/Rods

Probably with the custom cam/timing chain package, and "complete bottom end - Fox Body" package.

kind of pricy for a short block, but it should stand up to everything I throw at it

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I would call a turbo MFG. talk with them on the size and HP you want to make at what rpm and tell them you want to stay with a t4 flange. A pt88 will work and so with a gt4788 with a t4 flange. Borg Warner also has turbos with t4 flange that will work a gts76 would also work but would have a smaller t4 turbine housing on it. or you could drop back on the cid some and solve most of your concerns and still make big HP numbers with a turbo.
Like said with the HP you want to make I really dont know why you are gone turbo. when a N/A 363 would get you real close or meet your goals anyway.
N/A is cool and all, but nothing compares to F/I. The old 2000 I used to have was the most fun I've ever had (clothes on OR off, hah), and it put down around 560rwhp at like 4,000ft/sea level. This car seems much more like a death trap, doesn't even have air bags, but with the right suspension and 480hp, should scream like a mother.

The torque curve N/A doesn't even compare to a turbo car, so idk, seems like a good choice to me.
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Old 09-30-2014, 11:15 AM   #32
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I think I'm going to go with, from FordStrokers the



N/A is cool and all, but nothing compares to F/I. The old 2000 I used to have was the most fun I've ever had (clothes on OR off, hah), and it put down around 560rwhp at like 4,000ft/sea level. This car seems much more like a death trap, doesn't even have air bags, but with the right suspension and 480hp, should scream like a mother.

The torque curve N/A doesn't even compare to a turbo car, so idk, seems like a good choice to me.
I could not agree with you more. LOL boost is fun
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Old 09-30-2014, 11:15 AM
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