Turning Traction OFF disables 1-4 shift!!
07-07-2010, 01:00 PM
#12
2nd Gear Member
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: San Dago
Posts: 338
TCS could your bacon, or it could F*** you royally when you are trying to put down power and then it unexpectedly cuts off your power and makes the car react differently than what you expect, i'll take my chances with it off so i know what the car is going to do, thnx
07-07-2010, 02:07 PM
#14
6th Gear Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: state of confusion
Posts: 7,635
Thanks. I was hoping that it would only be a momentary thing. Not that it matters on my '08, but it's appreciated as a matter for future reference.
Count me firmly in on the "driver should have to actively select it" side of this discussion, so except for occasionally forgetting, I always do shut mine off. At best, TC isn't likely to be of all that much help to a driver with long and successful experience, and on worse might allow a sloppy driving habit of not paying sufficient attention to road conditions to develop.
I would far rather find out right away by having trouble getting the car moving from a stop that conditions are unusually slippery than later on when I can't stop or steer as well as I would have been led to expect - from having a relatively easy time of it getting underway.
Philosophically, I'm a lot contrarian when it comes to all of these active/electronic driving interferences. I expect certain mostly linear behaviors between what I do with the various controls and what the car does as a result. I absolutely do not want arbitrary limits placed on me that are lower than what the car is intrinsically capable of.
Norm
I would not get in the habit of arbitrarily turning the T/C off (except at the track) as some day you may need it and it won't be there to save your bacon. I read somewhere that some bozos actually connect it up backward so it's not on during start and has to be selected on with the switch at the driver's whim.
I would far rather find out right away by having trouble getting the car moving from a stop that conditions are unusually slippery than later on when I can't stop or steer as well as I would have been led to expect - from having a relatively easy time of it getting underway.
Philosophically, I'm a lot contrarian when it comes to all of these active/electronic driving interferences. I expect certain mostly linear behaviors between what I do with the various controls and what the car does as a result. I absolutely do not want arbitrary limits placed on me that are lower than what the car is intrinsically capable of.
Norm
Last edited by Norm Peterson; 07-07-2010 at 02:28 PM.
07-07-2010, 03:26 PM
#15
2nd Gear Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Ontario
Posts: 238
Haven't heard of the 3rd gear lockout.
Okay okay. I see I'm not going to win the T/C argument. I guess we are all expert drivers and always on our game. Our minds are never somewhere else when we're out some dark rainy night and we are pissed off and punch the throttle coming out of a turn and have forgotten to turn it on. It's there. Why not use it along with stability control? We have the option to turn 'em off when we want to play. Otherwise they are not intrusive. I remember the old days too. 98 horsepower MGBs and Healeys that took 9.8 seconds to 60. LOL. I learned too. How many people didn't? With this reasoning, too bad we can't turn off the the air-bags and anti-skid also.
I can see where everyone is coming from but I think these view points are a little short sighted. IMHO anyway.
Drive safely guys,
Cheers.
07-07-2010, 07:09 PM
#16
6th Gear Member
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Nicely done
Posts: 11,881
great thread guys! it reminded me that i needed to turn traction control off permanently in my tune! i'll enable it again when winter rolls around, but for now it's tire roasting season.
and no you can't do this with your handheld tuner, you have to have tuning software....
and no you can't do this with your handheld tuner, you have to have tuning software....
07-07-2010, 08:12 PM
#17
6th Gear Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: state of confusion
Posts: 7,635
Nor have I. Then again, I'm not actively looking at the moment.
I won't attempt to claim 'expert' status (whatever that might be or however it might be measured), but I know I'm sufficiently on my game when I'm driving to avoid stupidity with the throttle while in a turn. Regardless of conditions. If I'm off playing on a deserted parking lot after a light snowfall just to re-acquaint myself with the feel of the car getting a bit "loose", maneuvers that would be considered stupid/insane out on the public roads are intentional and done with distinct purpose.
Just because "it's there" is not a reason to use it; "being there" only represents the opportunity to use it if you choose to.
On another level, there is a philosophical difference, and this gets down to the individual. I can only speak for myself here, but I have a long enough and good enough driving experience that there is basis for having faith in my own judgment and driving skills.
The other side in this debate is hardwired to disbelieve that, won't trust me at my word, and thinks that at the very least I must make an active move every single time in order to disable.
On yet another level, as I hinted above there may well be an overall lessening of driver skill levels once people start relying on these systems to save their butt from carelessness or incompetence. I know what the various disclaimers in the Owner's Manual and other literature say about "no substitute for safe driving", but we both know how much real attention most people pay to statements like that.
I don't want to lose those skills - and to allow them to deteriorate is precisely what I would consider shortsighted. I've got just over 45 years invested in acquiring them, and I have three other cars for which I need to keep said skills reasonably current. My next car is likely to be a reconstruction of some sort, so I don't envision a gradually declining need for those skills.
That's arguable. The stability control on my wife's new Legacy (2.5GT, 265 HP, 6 speed manual) interfered very noticeably on one occasion where I'd left it on. Let's just say that when that particular stability control module decides that it doesn't like what you're up to, the car changes from being a willing dance partner back into the proverbial hundred lbs of clay in a burlap bag. Mostly benign, but draggy, no throttle response and just plain sluggish overall. There is at least one combination of road geometry and driver inputs that can set it off during relatively mild maneuvers. Definitely not a good thing when you're only a couple hundred feet from merging with 55 mph traffic.
Straw man.
Random people will always attempt more than is possible with respect to the laws of physics and the capabilities of their vehicle. Maybe not always by direct intention, but it will happen regardless of the level of electronic intervention. With electronics, I'd expect "incidents" to happen at higher speeds.
Two of my cars never had ABS, and a third has a dead $en$or but stops at least as good as it ever did (and passed inspection that way). ABS is overrated anyway - do you realize that what you need to do to optimize ABS brake performance is exactly opposite to what you need to be doing if it goes inop or if you drive a car without it? Or that under some conditions it does the wrong thing all by itself?
If you've been paying attention to one of Toyota's latest little difficulties - the one involving the Lexus GX460 - there's something in Toyota's "fix" that should concern any enthusiast. The stability control gets "recalibrated" to more conservative settings. Once the upper limits of vehicle performance are controlled via electronics rather than the mechanicals, you're at the mercy of whatever the contents of any service reflash might be.
And if that's not enough, just wait a while - there's something called "Emergency Steer Assist" just over the horizon (SAE eNewsletter).
Thanks. I'll try to keep a good thing going.
Norm
I guess we are all expert drivers and always on our game. Our minds are never somewhere else when we're out some dark rainy night and we are pissed off and punch the throttle coming out of a turn and have forgotten to turn it on.
It's there. Why not use it along with stability control? We have the option to turn 'em off when we want to play.
On another level, there is a philosophical difference, and this gets down to the individual. I can only speak for myself here, but I have a long enough and good enough driving experience that there is basis for having faith in my own judgment and driving skills.
The other side in this debate is hardwired to disbelieve that, won't trust me at my word, and thinks that at the very least I must make an active move every single time in order to disable.
On yet another level, as I hinted above there may well be an overall lessening of driver skill levels once people start relying on these systems to save their butt from carelessness or incompetence. I know what the various disclaimers in the Owner's Manual and other literature say about "no substitute for safe driving", but we both know how much real attention most people pay to statements like that.
I don't want to lose those skills - and to allow them to deteriorate is precisely what I would consider shortsighted. I've got just over 45 years invested in acquiring them, and I have three other cars for which I need to keep said skills reasonably current. My next car is likely to be a reconstruction of some sort, so I don't envision a gradually declining need for those skills.
Otherwise they are not intrusive.
I learned too. How many people didn't? With this reasoning, too bad we can't turn off the the air-bags and anti-skid also.
Random people will always attempt more than is possible with respect to the laws of physics and the capabilities of their vehicle. Maybe not always by direct intention, but it will happen regardless of the level of electronic intervention. With electronics, I'd expect "incidents" to happen at higher speeds.
Two of my cars never had ABS, and a third has a dead $en$or but stops at least as good as it ever did (and passed inspection that way). ABS is overrated anyway - do you realize that what you need to do to optimize ABS brake performance is exactly opposite to what you need to be doing if it goes inop or if you drive a car without it? Or that under some conditions it does the wrong thing all by itself?
If you've been paying attention to one of Toyota's latest little difficulties - the one involving the Lexus GX460 - there's something in Toyota's "fix" that should concern any enthusiast. The stability control gets "recalibrated" to more conservative settings. Once the upper limits of vehicle performance are controlled via electronics rather than the mechanicals, you're at the mercy of whatever the contents of any service reflash might be.
And if that's not enough, just wait a while - there's something called "Emergency Steer Assist" just over the horizon (SAE eNewsletter).
Drive safely guys,
Norm
Last edited by Norm Peterson; 07-07-2010 at 08:18 PM.
07-07-2010, 09:27 PM
#19
3rd Gear Member
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Norfolk, VA
Posts: 627
I'll sum it up succintly: I don't want a computer driving for me. If I wanted a computer guided car, I would've bought a GT-R. Or an automatic (no offense, auto guys).
Long version: IMHO, all nannies like TCS and ASC and stuff like that is allow you to drive dumber. They let you do dumber things at dumber speeds and not suffer the consequences. They turn you into less of a driver and more of an assistant operator. We don't need a country full of assistant operators - that's why people decide the best course of option when the throttle is stuck down is to call 911 instead of shifting to neutral or - you know - operating the vehicle. All stuff like TCS is doing is making us less skilled at driving, and that's the opposite of what needs to happen.
Long version: IMHO, all nannies like TCS and ASC and stuff like that is allow you to drive dumber. They let you do dumber things at dumber speeds and not suffer the consequences. They turn you into less of a driver and more of an assistant operator. We don't need a country full of assistant operators - that's why people decide the best course of option when the throttle is stuck down is to call 911 instead of shifting to neutral or - you know - operating the vehicle. All stuff like TCS is doing is making us less skilled at driving, and that's the opposite of what needs to happen.
07-08-2010, 07:21 AM
#20
6th Gear Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: state of confusion
Posts: 7,635
Running up against any level of electronic interference and relying on it to keep the car under control is about the worst attitude to take. You'll lose your fear of being up there without gaining the requisite skills.
Easy example of being "hung out to dry" - all it takes to bring this whole pile of "driver assistance" blocks tumbling down is for one ABS wheel sensor to go inop. Guess where that leaves the driver who has no experience operating outside the protection of either "sport mode" or full electronic control boundaries. Do not assume that he will properly interpret an illuminated "ABS" lamp to mean that the traction and stability control functions have also gone AWOL.
Norm