Making 500+ hp naturally aspirated
09-30-2011, 03:42 PM
#11
5th Gear Member
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,397
I do plan to do the work myself and I have some good support whenever I choose to do this project. Most likely I will try to accomplish this goal incrementally.
Finding someone locally to dyno tune probably wont happen. Most likely I'll have to drag my car up to Atlanta for that.
I'm really not interested in superchargers, because I wont need 700hp or 600hp, heck 500hp isn't necessary. I don't drag very often and honestly I Auto X more. The people I do race are N/A LS cars which is honestly where I have my most fun. Plus, its just something about a 302ci engine putting down 500hp all motor that really attributes to how great an engine it is.
I am also curious what a Boss 302 will put down with bolt-ons and a tune.
Finding someone locally to dyno tune probably wont happen. Most likely I'll have to drag my car up to Atlanta for that.
I'm really not interested in superchargers, because I wont need 700hp or 600hp, heck 500hp isn't necessary. I don't drag very often and honestly I Auto X more. The people I do race are N/A LS cars which is honestly where I have my most fun. Plus, its just something about a 302ci engine putting down 500hp all motor that really attributes to how great an engine it is.
I am also curious what a Boss 302 will put down with bolt-ons and a tune.
09-30-2011, 11:29 PM
#12
2nd Gear Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2010
Location: GA
Posts: 182
415whp with dynatech LTs, catted X, flowmaster hushpower axle backs and stock ford airbox and stock ford tune. a cai and not so great tune had the car at 421 whp. A good dyno tune would have put the car in the 430whp range i woudl reckon. i have a cai, but took it off to get ready for track key. waiting for track key is starting to feel like linus waiting for the great pumpkin.
Last edited by cjs06; 09-30-2011 at 11:41 PM.
09-30-2011, 11:45 PM
#13
3rd Gear Member
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Illinois
Posts: 879
Just my own opinion but I don't think Track Key will ever go public, it's been too long and there is some serious rumors going around on Blue Oval that it failed CARB again yesterday.....just FYI. I also don't think Fords latest commercial helped it's self with getting the Track Key through.
Last edited by REDBOSS1; 09-30-2011 at 11:47 PM.
10-01-2011, 06:51 AM
#14
1st Gear Member
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Indiana
Posts: 72
If you want 500whp you will need H/C/I, 500 engine horse power won't be too difficult. A major blower advantage will be lower rpm power. I saw the note on compression...11:1 is about the limit for pump gas...detonation and poor low rpm driving would be issues. I can't believe people run 87 in their cars at 11:1 but the engineers have done something with the twin cam timing that may help reduce pressure...but we havnt seen a good engine manual for these yet so it's hard to tell.
10-01-2011, 07:48 AM
#15
5th Gear Member
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,397
Just my own opinion but I don't think Track Key will ever go public, it's been too long and there is some serious rumors going around on Blue Oval that it failed CARB again yesterday.....just FYI. I also don't think Fords latest commercial helped it's self with getting the Track Key through.
10-01-2011, 11:23 AM
#16
My future plans for my car is to stay naturally aspirated, but also to be making over 500 rwhp. Before I explain the details, the why is as simple as "because I want to"; yeah, a supercharger will get me there no problem, however I don't want one and I believe I can attain my goal for a cheaper price.
So besides simple bolt-ons and long tube headers with a full 3" cat-back. I'm looking at higher-compression pistons, ported heads, cams with more valve lift and bigger duration.
I know L&M makes pistons for the coyote and I'm curious how high of a compression can be used for a noticeable gain on 93 octane, 11:1 is already a high compression so I'm guessing not much more.
I know Ford Racing is selling their ported Boss 302R heads with intake and exhaust valves that have 13mm valve lift. I'm curious if a custom head porting job is needed with clearance for the rocker arms.
The Boss 302R cams look like the best option atm with a 290 degree duration for both the exhaust and intake cams. I think the Stage 3 Comp Cams get 283 exhaust and 276 intake.
I imagine this combination and stronger conrods will allow me to rev over 8000 reliably to make very nice peak horsepower.
Anyways, please share your thoughts and ideas on whether or not this combination will make the power goal that I want.
So besides simple bolt-ons and long tube headers with a full 3" cat-back. I'm looking at higher-compression pistons, ported heads, cams with more valve lift and bigger duration.
I know L&M makes pistons for the coyote and I'm curious how high of a compression can be used for a noticeable gain on 93 octane, 11:1 is already a high compression so I'm guessing not much more.
I know Ford Racing is selling their ported Boss 302R heads with intake and exhaust valves that have 13mm valve lift. I'm curious if a custom head porting job is needed with clearance for the rocker arms.
The Boss 302R cams look like the best option atm with a 290 degree duration for both the exhaust and intake cams. I think the Stage 3 Comp Cams get 283 exhaust and 276 intake.
I imagine this combination and stronger conrods will allow me to rev over 8000 reliably to make very nice peak horsepower.
Anyways, please share your thoughts and ideas on whether or not this combination will make the power goal that I want.
You basically hit on the combo you need to get to 500 BHP crank. At the wheels? I am not too sure.
But even with only 300 ft-lbf or even as little as 250 ft-lbf torque, you can reach 500 HP.
The axiom of horsepower is rev as high as possible and even with only 100ft-lbf torque, it is possible to reach 500 HP.
High RPMs is the key because NA setups are not necessarily torque producers at such small displacements are engine displace (only 302 ci).
For example, with only 300 ft-lbf torque, you would need to rev to just a tad over 8750 RPM.
If you have less torque, you must rev higher. So if you only have 250 ft-lbf torque, to get 500 HP, you must rev to over 10,000 RPM. Not practical for a car that is not strictly dedicated to the track.
But with 100 ft-lbf torque, you have to rev really high to get 500 HP, you have to rev to over 26,000 RPM!!!!
On wheel dynos, our cars when stock hit anywhere from 325 ft-lbf to as high as 350 ft-lbf at the wheels. But that torque begins to drop, maybe 300 ft-lbf at around redline? So if you can hold onto 300 ft-lbf torque at the wheels all the way pushing towards 9000 RPM, all you have to mod for is to reach that 9000 RPM and you will be above the goal of 500 HP, and at the wheels at that!
Definitely forged pistons and maybe even true forged conrods because at those RPMs, the cylinders will see supercharger-like pressures, even though you are only NA!
You will have to go with very short runners to run above 8000 RPM. The Boss intake is designed for 7500 RPM, and it can service a bit more RPM, maybe to 8000 RPM, but it will not service well for that 8750 RPM for 500 horsepower. You will thus have to custom fab an intake with even shorter runners.
And your duration on your cams: you will definitely have to go with longer duration. Just how much more? I dont know. Over 300 degrees is all I can say.
And speaking of cams, forget TiVCT. Simply lock them in because at above 8000 RPM, its reaction time would cause the phasing to occur too late.
Other than that, the only other way I can think of to get to 500 horsepower in NA, you will have to go larger displacement.
10-01-2011, 11:28 AM
#17
3rd Gear Member
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Illinois
Posts: 879
There is no real story, it's a guy on the Boss Mustang Performance forum that said he knows a guy that knows a guy.....that knows a guy that found out yesterday that it failed CARB, even if it's not true I don't see it going through or it would have happened by now. Sorry for the thread jack fellas.
10-01-2011, 11:35 AM
#18
If CARB is indeed the hold up, Ford should just sell it to the other 49 states.
And sorry to all you Cali guys, but you guys should vote all your tree hugging hippie politicians out of office and get new guys in to ease up on CARB laws.
10-01-2011, 11:46 AM
#19
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: CALIF
Posts: 20
Considering TracKey, I agree. It has been promised since last year, the Boss302 has been out since March and still not TracKey.
If CARB is indeed the hold up, Ford should just sell it to the other 49 states.
And sorry to all you Cali guys, but you guys should vote all your tree hugging hippie politicians out of office and get new guys in to ease up on CARB laws.
If CARB is indeed the hold up, Ford should just sell it to the other 49 states.
And sorry to all you Cali guys, but you guys should vote all your tree hugging hippie politicians out of office and get new guys in to ease up on CARB laws.
10-01-2011, 02:36 PM
#20
2nd Gear Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2010
Location: GA
Posts: 182
You basically hit on the combo you need to get to 500 BHP crank. At the wheels? I am not too sure.
But even with only 300 ft-lbf or even as little as 250 ft-lbf torque, you can reach 500 HP.
The axiom of horsepower is rev as high as possible and even with only 100ft-lbf torque, it is possible to reach 500 HP.
High RPMs is the key because NA setups are not necessarily torque producers at such small displacements are engine displace (only 302 ci).
For example, with only 300 ft-lbf torque, you would need to rev to just a tad over 8750 RPM.
If you have less torque, you must rev higher. So if you only have 250 ft-lbf torque, to get 500 HP, you must rev to over 10,000 RPM. Not practical for a car that is not strictly dedicated to the track.
But with 100 ft-lbf torque, you have to rev really high to get 500 HP, you have to rev to over 26,000 RPM!!!!
On wheel dynos, our cars when stock hit anywhere from 325 ft-lbf to as high as 350 ft-lbf at the wheels. But that torque begins to drop, maybe 300 ft-lbf at around redline? So if you can hold onto 300 ft-lbf torque at the wheels all the way pushing towards 9000 RPM, all you have to mod for is to reach that 9000 RPM and you will be above the goal of 500 HP, and at the wheels at that!
Definitely forged pistons and maybe even true forged conrods because at those RPMs, the cylinders will see supercharger-like pressures, even though you are only NA!
You will have to go with very short runners to run above 8000 RPM. The Boss intake is designed for 7500 RPM, and it can service a bit more RPM, maybe to 8000 RPM, but it will not service well for that 8750 RPM for 500 horsepower. You will thus have to custom fab an intake with even shorter runners.
And your duration on your cams: you will definitely have to go with longer duration. Just how much more? I dont know. Over 300 degrees is all I can say.
And speaking of cams, forget TiVCT. Simply lock them in because at above 8000 RPM, its reaction time would cause the phasing to occur too late.
Other than that, the only other way I can think of to get to 500 horsepower in NA, you will have to go larger displacement.
But even with only 300 ft-lbf or even as little as 250 ft-lbf torque, you can reach 500 HP.
The axiom of horsepower is rev as high as possible and even with only 100ft-lbf torque, it is possible to reach 500 HP.
High RPMs is the key because NA setups are not necessarily torque producers at such small displacements are engine displace (only 302 ci).
For example, with only 300 ft-lbf torque, you would need to rev to just a tad over 8750 RPM.
If you have less torque, you must rev higher. So if you only have 250 ft-lbf torque, to get 500 HP, you must rev to over 10,000 RPM. Not practical for a car that is not strictly dedicated to the track.
But with 100 ft-lbf torque, you have to rev really high to get 500 HP, you have to rev to over 26,000 RPM!!!!
On wheel dynos, our cars when stock hit anywhere from 325 ft-lbf to as high as 350 ft-lbf at the wheels. But that torque begins to drop, maybe 300 ft-lbf at around redline? So if you can hold onto 300 ft-lbf torque at the wheels all the way pushing towards 9000 RPM, all you have to mod for is to reach that 9000 RPM and you will be above the goal of 500 HP, and at the wheels at that!
Definitely forged pistons and maybe even true forged conrods because at those RPMs, the cylinders will see supercharger-like pressures, even though you are only NA!
You will have to go with very short runners to run above 8000 RPM. The Boss intake is designed for 7500 RPM, and it can service a bit more RPM, maybe to 8000 RPM, but it will not service well for that 8750 RPM for 500 horsepower. You will thus have to custom fab an intake with even shorter runners.
And your duration on your cams: you will definitely have to go with longer duration. Just how much more? I dont know. Over 300 degrees is all I can say.
And speaking of cams, forget TiVCT. Simply lock them in because at above 8000 RPM, its reaction time would cause the phasing to occur too late.
Other than that, the only other way I can think of to get to 500 horsepower in NA, you will have to go larger displacement.
Mabey good sizeable cams and 8000rpms is enough to get there.