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Another #8 Cylinder Issue?? Need HELP

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Old 02-27-2012, 11:40 AM   #1
AKElroy
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Default Another #8 Cylinder Issue?? Need HELP

I have 12,000 on my 2011 Coyote with zero problems until now. See my sig line for current mods. I've run the Brenspeed 93 race tune since break-in, roughly 10,500 miles. I always buy gas from a reputable Chevron station, and generaly run the car hard.

Yesterday, I had to take a 100 mile trip for a funeral. On the way up, I had a couple of 4th gear roll-on's with a guy in a blown Shelby, nothing too dramatic, just a couple of 4th gear redlines. It was 60 degrees out, low humidity. Upon getting to my destination, the check engine light comes on. I check it with the tuner, and it shows Cylinder #8 misfire. The car is not smoking, sounds fine, runs fine. I switch to the 87 tune, light goes away, and then comes back on after 20 miles of sedate highway driving.

Not sure what to do next----Is it safe to drive with the idiot light on? Should I put the OEM air-box back on & reflash to the OEM tune?
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Old 02-27-2012, 11:55 AM   #2
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most of the people with the #8 issue have white smoke coming out of the tail-pipe and it feels down on power.

You wont fool the dealership with that, well maybe the local techs but once they tear down and see the #8 piston issue or pull up the TBS on cyl #8 it will say to pull the ECU and send to ford. They'll see that it had been flashed and will deny warranty coverage on this issue.

I would call Brenspeed and let them know about this, see what they recommend. 87 tune with 91 or 93 octane gas in the tank should be fine/safe.. but if the damage has been done.. you could be looking at a $3,000 to $4,500 repair bill.
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Old 02-27-2012, 11:57 AM   #3
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I left a message for Chandler at Brenspeed this morning, nothing yet. I will keep updating as I get more info.
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Old 02-27-2012, 12:12 PM   #4
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but if the damage has been done.. you could be looking at a $3,000 to $4,500 repair bill.
I have been skimming some of the threads on this issue, and it seems like Ford is breaking the law with these warranty claim denials. Under the law, don't they have to show the tune created the problem? Brenspeed maintains that they DO NOT change the stock knock sensitivity values in their tunes, so I do not see how it could be to blame.
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Old 02-27-2012, 12:18 PM   #5
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once they tear down and see the #8 piston issue or pull up the TBS on cyl #8 it will say to pull the ECU and send to ford. They'll see that it had been flashed and will deny warranty coverage on this issue.
How much memory can this thing hold? Seems like if I put 75 - 100 miles on it OEM, it would show only that info unless they specifically programmed it to look for the reflash. I am not a tech guy, but has anyone tested this?
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Old 02-27-2012, 12:47 PM   #6
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yes, it doesn't matter what you do, it has a counter (not phsyical) that increments each time the ECU is flashed, there is no way for anyone, even Ford to clear it. It doesn't use any extra memory or lose that information ever. I'm guessing they even insulated it against magnetic waves and such... Someone has toyed with the idea of having a 2nd ECU, one for the tunes and one for stock calibration. I think that sounds a bit crazy to me, i'm not sure if that would even work with the way the system is and the keys but it might.

As far as the warranty law applies I'd have to read the exact wording but basically they dont have to prove it to you, they can claim that the tune caused it, show up in court and say that it was due to a performance tune that exceeded the manufacture's specifications for how far timing should be advanced leading to detonation and the breaking of ring landing on piston #8. And you'd be hard pressed to prove them incorrect, plus you'd need a lawyer and I think you are unlikely to win.

There are always rumors of "stock" 5.0s blowing #8 but i haven't seen any real/proven cases, they always claim they were stock then Ford checks the ECU and it had been flashed or it's I heard from a from a friend that this happened... no first hand accounts.

If we could find documented, proven cases of multiple stock 5.0s blowing them then we could probably have a case. But so far it seems we have a bunch that at one point or another had been tuned and no stock ones having the issue. Logically it must be the tune. Just because you have knock sensors doesn't mean you can't have detonation that will cause piston damage, it helps prevent it, but it can't stop it 100%.
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Old 02-27-2012, 01:28 PM   #7
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I received a call from Chandler at Brenspeed, and he maintains that they have only heard from 3 folks with this issue, (4 now I guess), two were faulty oil squirters, one was a faulty rod bearing. None were denied coverage as they are clearly not tune related. He further stated that if the car is running a stock tune on the OEM intake, that Ford has no way to determine the type of tune that may have been previously run, and that they cannot deny coverage without that proof.

This gives me an ethical delima, and I have made a decision. I am going to take the car as-is to a non-warranty shop for a diagnostic. If they confirm that number 8 is damaged, I will attempt to have Ford cover the repair with the car modded as is. I may ultimately have to pay the price to have it fixed, and then visit with Brenspeed about the issue. I'm not going to hide mods that I made. If they don't cover it, then I will deal with it. As for Brenspeed, that may be another issue. I should not be looking at major repairs for running a tune installed exactly as directed. I will post the results; if this proves to be major, I will also post my progress to get the responsible party to make it right; whether Ford or Brenspeed. If either steps up, I will make them look like heroes. All I know is, this car has been meticulously maintained, and regardless how I drive it on the street should not grenade at 12,000 miles.
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Old 02-27-2012, 01:31 PM   #8
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Quote:
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yes, it doesn't matter what you do, it has a counter (not phsyical) that increments each time the ECU is flashed, there is no way for anyone, even Ford to clear it. It doesn't use any extra memory or lose that information ever. I'm guessing they even insulated it against magnetic waves and such... Someone has toyed with the idea of having a 2nd ECU, one for the tunes and one for stock calibration. I think that sounds a bit crazy to me, i'm not sure if that would even work with the way the system is and the keys but it might.

As far as the warranty law applies I'd have to read the exact wording but basically they dont have to prove it to you, they can claim that the tune caused it, show up in court and say that it was due to a performance tune that exceeded the manufacture's specifications for how far timing should be advanced leading to detonation and the breaking of ring landing on piston #8. And you'd be hard pressed to prove them incorrect, plus you'd need a lawyer and I think you are unlikely to win.

There are always rumors of "stock" 5.0s blowing #8 but i haven't seen any real/proven cases, they always claim they were stock then Ford checks the ECU and it had been flashed or it's I heard from a from a friend that this happened... no first hand accounts.

If we could find documented, proven cases of multiple stock 5.0s blowing them then we could probably have a case. But so far it seems we have a bunch that at one point or another had been tuned and no stock ones having the issue. Logically it must be the tune. Just because you have knock sensors doesn't mean you can't have detonation that will cause piston damage, it helps prevent it, but it can't stop it 100%.
+1 no first-hand documented cases about anyone having a warranty issue come up with #8 cyclinder failure and an aftermarket tune. Here's the original link that includes a copy of the TSB. It is VERY specific as to what types of damage is suspect from an aftermarket tune and how to determine if the PCM has been retuned.

http://mustangforums.com/forum/5-0l-...n-failure.html

You can swap the tune and air intake back to stock (except for the gears) but it won't matter. Ford can figure out that one existed.

Edit: based on your response from Brenspeed. Yep, that's why I said Ford can figure out that a tune existed. That's it, not what in the tune caused it to go bad since they won't have the tune itself.
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Old 02-27-2012, 01:59 PM   #9
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they may not know exactly what tune was installed on the car, but they can certainly ask you why the ECU has been reflashed twice. At which point you can:
A. Tell them the truth, give them the documentation about what the tune does, and hope they cover it.
B. Lie about it, say you don't know what happened, and have them deny coverage with you having no leg to stand on.
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Old 02-27-2012, 02:09 PM   #10
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After reading that TSB, it looks as though my chances with Ford are more dismal if I attempt to hide the mods. The diagram in that TSB has the warranty cancellation process automatically initiated once they determine if the battery was intentionally disconnected after the OEM tune was re-flashed.

At least with the mods in place, they must render a judgement as to whether the mod caused the failure rather than automatically denying based on the detected attempt to hide the re-flash. Is that how you read it?
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Old 02-27-2012, 05:20 PM   #11
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Check your plugs..you may need a colder plug..I had to change my factory sparks about that same time and they were gapped down

Good luck...I have been running headers, x-pipe, cai, nitrous, JLT/SCT tunes etc, etc.....for 18 months and 24k miles with a deleted cat tune, dyno tune modifications etc..and only had to turn off the aft Ox2..raced at the track and hard on the street..about the same mods you have except for the spray..I think you would have had to do something extreme to hurt a NA 5.0
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Old 02-27-2012, 05:25 PM   #12
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I checked the oil at my last gas-up, and even with 2500 miles, it was clear and the level was perfect. I just checked it again, and it is black as pitch and 1/2 quart low, less than 200 miles later. I had the wife start the car with me behind it, and it belched white smoke at start-up. Looks like it's hurt. This SERIOUSLY sucks.
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Old 02-27-2012, 05:28 PM   #13
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Personally I wouldn't bother paying someone for a diagnostic, I'd just take it to Ford and hope they don't charge too much or hope that they cover the diagnostic under warranty (they should). Some dealerships have done engine tear-downs before being denied the warranty. leaving a pretty big bill which I think sucks, so just be careful about how far they go I guess.

If I had a blown #8 i'd just build it up better than ever... if I could afford to.

you can't tell much by the color of the oil. I'd just take it in and not do anything more to it, maybe you'll be lucky and it's just mis-fires like GT/CS_2011 said get new colder plugs.
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Old 02-27-2012, 05:35 PM   #14
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If I had a blown #8 i'd just build it up better than ever... if I could afford to.

Not an option.
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Old 02-27-2012, 05:44 PM   #15
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If you have a good relationship with the dealer they can work around warranty work. I blew my trans. up after installing my s/c took to the dealer where I bought it, they rebuilt it under warrranty. If the 5.0's having this problem are the ones with a tune only , then the tunes are bad in my opinion. The 05-10 don't seem to have an issue after being tuned. I never had a problem with my 05, I had serveral different tunes, nos, and ran it had for 36k then decided to up the h.p. and went with a forged block. Try and check if this dealer is mod friendly some are and some are real pains about it. Good luck anyways.
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Old 02-27-2012, 05:48 PM   #16
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My 2012 had the #7 Blow out.... It needed a full long block replacement... but there was an audible knocking.. and noticeable power reduction.

I would say have them prove your issue was from your tune or mods... my car only had a cat back exhaust, never changed anything else.. I think mine had to be a bad lemon from factory because it was at 4000 miles when it blew. However it is still not right, and may never be unfortunately... good luck to me and you both!
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Old 02-28-2012, 05:34 AM   #17
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YellowBlaze -- You may be the fabled "missing link". Yours is the first post I have seen where a non-tuned car rolled a ring. You had no tune, correct?
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Old 02-28-2012, 06:58 AM   #18
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When you were running the tune before it went did you noticr any pinging or anything at the upper rpm range?
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Old 02-28-2012, 07:21 AM   #19
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Going to be watching this thread for sure. I'm curious to see how all of this goes down for you...truly fingers crossed that this gets resolved under warranty at no cost to you. Brenspeed has a solid reputation for a reason and I would doubt that one of their tunes was truly "bad". Albeit it now has me nervous since I'm running a Brenspeed 87 tune on my 5.0 currently.

And just when I was feeling like I didn't have to be paranoid... :\
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Old 02-28-2012, 09:37 AM   #20
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Having received some good advice I have changed my plan. It appears that even if the dealership wants to work with me, I will be shooting myself in the foot by showing up with the mods in place, which pretty much requires them to make note of them, painting Ford into a corner. I will return the CAI & tune to OEM, take it in, and see what they say. I will not be concealing anything from them, and I will answer any questions they ask regarding the mods. That happens in the morning; Prayers are appreciated!
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Old 02-28-2012, 09:37 AM
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