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Help requested on 1967, 289 Stock to Mild Performance Build

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Old 11-23-2010, 12:22 AM   #1
JH_67
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Default Help requested on 1967, 289 Stock to Mild Performance Build

Hi All,
I am trying to find the right combination for my 1967, 289 coupe.
I would like to draw upon your experiences for my project, please any thoughts are welcome.
I am an every other weekend driver but want to have good low end acceleration. This car will never be on the track but should see from time to time a few stoplight to stoplight experiences. At the present everything is stock and I will be replacing my 2-barrel carburetor and intake. Both my C4-automatic and stock rear end are not in the plans to be altered at this time. Although I will put headers and an ‘H’ pipe on my existing dual exhaust.
The parts that I have acquired so far are both an Edelbrock performer manifold (2121) and a RPM/AirGap manifold (7521) – unsure which to use; I’ve been told the AirGap is not for a mild build (high RPM’s only) and would not help with the low end torque I desire, and since I’m not going to wind out the engine above 5500 (probably not even close to that) I’m just not sure which to use. I also have a new Edelbrock 600cfm carburetor (1406). These are the only parts I have in hand and they are all new, still in boxes and not returnable.
I have been struggling with what to do with the Heads. I could use the stock 289’s but would need to do a valve job and port match the exhaust to compliment the introductory system. Or I could get a set of GT-40’s (not ‘P’s) local availability around $300, used in good shape but would still have to do a valve job, on these no exhaust porting would be required (these may lower my compression slightly). Either of these options would only be a stones throw away from a new set of aluminum heads (possibly Edelbrock RPM (60229) that can be used with my stock pistons of which are not going to be changed out.
I have been looking at replacing my cam with a Comp Cam xe256 as noted in previous threads. The posting that grabbed me the most was by Kalli’s & Starfury’s wonderful detailed description that was posted back in June 2008 “XE256H on stock engine and heads”.
Anyway I would really appreciate any comments regarding if I am on the right path with the components I have listed.
Thank you for your suggestions in advance!!!
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Old 11-23-2010, 05:32 AM   #2
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My car is basically built the same as what your wanting to do.

I would run the Performer intake.

I have the Edelbrock aluminum heads on mine and am very satisfied with them.

I think I would go with a mild cam.
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Old 11-23-2010, 09:01 AM   #3
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tx65coupe, your car sounds Fantastic!
What are the Edelbrock part numbers that you incorporated in your build?
Is the cam also Edelbrock?
How is your low end toque?

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Old 11-23-2010, 12:02 PM   #4
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i just searched for that topic and read through the whole article again.
it was a while back and a _lot_ has changed in my engine (well it's a different engin)

you're best off in asking the classic mustang technical section (not the general discussion). you have a bigger audience there

I like that you already know that you won't rev much past 5500. most people look for a cam that makes peak power at 7000+ when the engine disentigrates at 6000 :-)

I am still on the opinion that the xe256h is a great broad power cam for a stock 289.
Of course if the intake/exhaust is improved only then it makes sense.

As for your build:
the air gap is a fantastic manifold which I'd love for my engine, but yes it's made for engines that have their powerrange at 1500-6500
very same as the performer rpm. They're both tall so you might run into clearance issues with the hood depending on the carburetor and filter. That could be sorted though.
I would still take that airgap (dual plane) over any single plane intake (like the victor series) on a street driven car.
The performer (2121) and the weiand (8124 i think) are both good choices for what you're planning.

as said, post in the technical forum. more people will respond.
i think if you keep the stock bottom end with
- performer intake
- edelbrock 600cfm carb
- headers
- edelbrock heads
- xe256H
is still a good choice. don't forget to check out the edelbrock e-street heads!
They are cheaper and might be a better match, _but_ if you do any other performance upgrades .. maybe bottom end at some day, you will be happy you chose them

I don't really understand edelbrocks pricing policy (or summit prices)

the '9' in the end of head part number usually means single (not a pair of heads).

So it goes:
edelbrock e-streets (1.9 intake)
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/EDL-5023/
930$ for the pair

the performer head with 1.9 intake:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/EDL-60329/
609.50 each -> 1210$ the pair

performer rpm with 1.9 intake:
$576.50 each (why cheaper than performer???) -> 1153$ the pair

so from that it's either e-street or rpm.

Now here's the question: why not use rpm heads, airgap intake. live with the consequences: missing torque at low end not using the parts to best and later down the road do the bottom end and only change the cam?

Impossible for me to advise others :-)

post in technical section and you have more people commenting for sure.

and ya, like the sounds of tx65coupes car as well, so I bought the same mufflers (still waiting to find time for an install flowmaster 40->dynomax ultraflo welded)

Kalli
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Old 11-23-2010, 07:31 PM   #5
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Kalli,
I love your detailed response, you are very articulate!
This info has definitely given me great ideas. Now I need to think a bit. I haven't heard of the e-streets heads, I will look into those. I was originally thinking about the RPM's, there is a $223 difference b/t the two and definitely worth looking into!
I like the ideas you have with the AirGap; maybe the xe256 would help with the low end loss?
Also, I guess I'm lame but I thought I started this post in the technical forum - maybe I need a little help finding that one to....
Thanks again for the guidance!
BTW, Listening forward to hearing your sound when you get a chance to install teh Flowmasters...

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Old 11-24-2010, 02:38 AM   #6
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Most people build these hyped up motors that in fact are not fun to drive or have many issues with mis-matched parts, I think you are on the right track.

I am an edelbrock fan and have used the 1406 / performer manifold on more than a few motors. If you are up for spending $ on a set of aluminum heads, here is what my motor would look like, which is almost identical to Kalli:
- performer intake
- edelbrock 600cfm carb
- headers / low restriction muffler
- new lifters / timing chain / roller rocker
- edelbrock aluminium heads
- matching edelbrock cam 2122

ENGINE: FORD 289-302 V8
RPM RANGE: Idle-5500

Duration at 0.006" Lift: Intake: 270° Exhaust: 280°
Duration at 0.050" Lift: Intake: 204° Exhaust: 214°
Lift at Cam: Intake: 0.280" Exhaust: 0.295"
Lift at Valve: Intake: 0.448" Exhaust: 0.472"
Timing at 0.050" lift: Open Close
Intake: 5° ATDC 29° ABDC
Exhaust: 44° BBDC 10° BTDC
Centerlines: Lobe Separation - 112° Intake Centerline - 107°

Click the image to open in full size.
Click the image to open in full size.
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Old 11-24-2010, 02:51 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JH_67 View Post
tx65coupe, your car sounds Fantastic!
What are the Edelbrock part numbers that you incorporated in your build?
Is the cam also Edelbrock?
How is your low end toque?
Thanks. The low end torque and mid range power is great. I think it is perfect for a street car. Its basically just a cruiser. I love it. It can hang with my Dad's 97 Cobra.

I wouldn't want to give up low end torque for high RPM power. I rarely take it above 4,000 to 4,500 RPM anyway. If it was a drag strip car, I might change my mind about that.

It has an Edelbrock 650 Thunder AVS carburetor on top of an Edelbrock Performer RPM intake. It has Edelbrock Performer RPM heads with roller rockers. It has a mild cam. I'll have to look and see which one it has.

Here is the cam info. ELGIN # E-1017P
212 / 222 Duration @ 050 .493 / .510 Valve Lift.

Some other details. It has a Pertronix billet distributor, Ford Racing King Cobra Clutch, JBA mid length headers with 2.5 inch exhaust and H pipe.

Since mufflers were mentioned, I will say that the Dynomax Ultraflo mufflers sound far better than the Blowmasters with less interior drone too. You can still hear them in the car, but its not obnoxious. I also like that fact that you can see straight through them.
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Old 11-25-2010, 11:34 AM   #8
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JH,

I gave this some more thought on your situation and I think your biggest risk is that you don't know these motors too well.

You have a good and matched edelbrock intake/carb, which is consistent with your desire for a performing street motor. Fine, good start.

Now you have to choose:
Cam
Head
Lifters
Pushrods
Rocker arms

You have to cover a lot of bases when you get heads from V, cam from W, lifters from X, pushrods from Y, rocker arms from Z. It is not as simple as ordering out of the catalog. All the parts have to work together and be correct for your application. If you can find someone that has the exact same set-up and is tried and true, excellent, that should eliminate some of the big problems you may encounter.

This is why I would recommend sticking with all Edelbrock, at least for your first motor. Yea, you could probably get another 15 hp out of trickflow heads, but what does that do to your pushrod length? Do you now need special headers? Does in change your compression? Are you buying bare, if so which valve springs? There are a ton of things, all which have to be right to have a long lasting, properly running motor.

Edelbrock has dynotuned these packages and has been selling them since the 80's. They have all the bugs wrung out. Whatever you choose, good luck and be sure to post your progress.

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Note, this is thier power package, probably one step above what you are looking at.

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Old 11-25-2010, 01:43 PM   #9
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very valid point (buying a set), however the horsepower and torque ratings are to be ignored. you see that the torque climbs at 3000 and he'll max out at 5500 with the pistons. I never tried to rev a stocker higher because the heads would fall flat on their face. but here we're running into dangerous territory ... wooooheeeeeee...bam

i have exactly that set with 10:1 compression, proper ignition. only thing I changed is the cam, but my but-o-meter tells me maybe just past the 300hp mark ... i'll maybe see at a dynoshop in summer.

but yes, it is a safer option for unexperienced to buy a set. the edelbrock perfromer rpm cam is great (had that), i just hear more than plenty to stay away from the edelbrock perfromer cam.

I would love to hear any opinion on running the edelbrock perfromer rpm kit on a stock 289 ... anyone ever do that?
my bottom end is built for it so i can't tell ?!

so if you'd get the performer kit I'd still change the cam to xe256h but I don't think it's worth the money/hassle then as I'd guess the kit price is like all parts +cam for free as discount so to say, if you'd get the performer rpm kit you can leave all parts matched

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Last edited by kalli; 11-25-2010 at 01:45 PM.
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Old 11-26-2010, 08:31 PM   #10
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Kalli, tx65coupe & GT350R_Klone, I can’t thank you enough for your input!
Today, StreetSideAuto.com had its annual Black Friday Sale, and with what we were all looking at and I was finally able to bring my costs down enough to pull the trigger – still a lot though.
The Edelbrock RPM Heads were $605 today; funny how with a sale the costs went up in price from Wednesday at $576.50 each. So I challenged them to reduce the price to Wednesday’s to not be an artificial increase due to the sale and they honored the $576.50 price. And with each $500 there was a $100 sale discount so I ended up getting the pair for $953.00 (with free shipping and no TAX); how could I go wrong?
TeamC.com had the best prices on the xe256, lifters, roller rockers that CompCam suggested ($151), head & intake bolts so I ordered those also, although I don’t pay for any of those until I pick those up (I’m only a few miles away, kilos for you Kalli!).
I have already got the gaskets, but I will need to get a push rod checker.
I will let you all know how this combination works in about a month right around the end of year holidays when I take some vacation time off. But I’m pretty excited now so I’m not sure I will be able to wait until then…
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Old 11-27-2010, 05:04 AM   #11
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There is more than one set of Edelbrock aluminum heads for 302s. Which ones did you end up getting?

When you get to the point of installing headers, I suggest getting some Percy's Seal 4 Good gaskets.
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Old 11-27-2010, 07:06 AM   #12
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nice :-) ya, what did you end up getting ? :-)
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CSRP disc brakes front and FRPP discs back.
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Old 11-27-2010, 10:37 AM   #13
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After talking to the Edelbrock Tech Support; the Performer RPM Heads for the 289 with stock pistons the intake valves need to be 1.90”; therefore it is part number Edelbrock 60229. These heads are for stock pistons w/o a notch cut so that there would not be any clearance problems.

I like the name percy “SEAL 4 GOOD” gaskets; that kinda says it all, huh?

Do you have any suggestions for the right headers to go with the gaskets? I know Kalli, you have the long tube Hookers and tx65coupe, you are using the JBA’s. Are there headers that will give me clearance w/o moving my P/S steering ram. When I had headers back in the 70’s and I lowered the P/S ram I thought that the steering just wasn’t as good. Would I possibly be able to use Shorty’s and get around moving the ram?

Oh, and THANKS FOR THE HELP AGAIN! Maybe soon I will be totally enjoying my candy-apple red ‘stang like you guys…
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Old 11-28-2010, 12:42 PM   #14
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yes, it'll have to be the 1.9" intake valve version alright. I have the 2.02 (6025x), but I have different pistons. Stock has to be 1.9, can't go bigger. my car came with long tube headers and i wanted to replace them so stayed with long tubes. If you're starting from scratch so to say, sure go for shorter one. better ground clearance, long tube are quite low. you want good header gaskets as they constantly blow otherwise, i think the seal 4 good are the same material used in exhaust donuts. so it's a bit more flexible. can't re-use them, but if you get it right the first time you're good.

Before you start building make sure to post when you have all parts, there are a few typical things first-timers trap into (me included, so let's call it experience) ;-)

as for the headers, it would be good to make sure that the tubes are a size up from stock. Tell the seller what heads you have and he can get you something matching. it would be a shame to reduce the big exhaust port in the heads with small header tubes

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Quick Performance Racing 9" rear, Moser axles, 3.5:1 trac-loc from FRPP and T5 transmission.
CSRP disc brakes front and FRPP discs back.
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Old 11-28-2010, 10:12 PM   #15
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Thank you Kalli!
Yes, when everything is here on-site I’ll list all the parts (and #’s) and then we can get started doing it right the first time (with your experience of course!).
I’ll verify the header selection when I start to research those. Shorty’s would be nice, I just want to have clearance inside the engine compartment (that was why I took them off 20 years ago, when it would take me over an hour to change the two rear spark plugs and many knuckle scrapings).
Post to you soon…
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Old 11-29-2010, 09:33 AM   #16
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Congrats on your purchases! Sounds like you got some great prices and the components are well matched. Although not what I recommended (cam choice, mix/matched parts), I think you can put together a great motor. I will subscribe to this thread, so keep this one going though your start-up.

A few thoughts:

Shorty headers just for the ease of installation.

I'm assuming the motor is or will be out of the car? That timing cover to oil pain seal can be a bear to do in the car.

Be sure to get new header bolts and be very careful when torquing them into those nice new soft metal heads.

Be sure to use break-in lube and pour oil over your valve train and spin up your oil pump before cranking over.
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Old 11-29-2010, 09:35 AM   #17
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JH, I just noticed you are in CA. If you are anywhere near Sacramamento, let me know. I have an engine stand and hoist you can borrow for as long as you need it.

Ken
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Old 11-29-2010, 10:06 AM   #18
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Quote:
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JH, I just noticed you are in CA. If you are anywhere near Sacramamento, let me know. I have an engine stand and hoist you can borrow for as long as you need it.

Ken
cool offer :-)

with the engine out it is a lot easier and a lot better on your back. But I have done heads twice at least on those with engine in.
That timing cover to pan seal is an utter nightmatare. But I find it's rather fitting it into the timing cover. As I simply put it in and bolt the pan back up to squeeze it

here's the list of warnings:
1. do not run (however tempting) this engine with the original pushrods. you will need hardened pushrods measured to size. Very often with those swaps the original size is pretty ok. but again. you need hardened as otherwise the guideplates will eat into them
2. the block will have 2 little holes drilled. some drill all 8, check the heads instructions manual. It is very easy to do, the only problem I ever had with that was that i broke the drillbits once I was through to water jacket and had to peel them out again ... ask edelbrock if unsure. I drilled only 2 in my buddies block, but I think 8 would be better.
3. the camshaft has a specific break in procedure. You must not change from that.
We will find a link and or write it up for you. If you don't stick to that you will ruin the new cam (grind down lobes)
4. the intake manifold is a wedge. when you torque it down chances are another side is loose again. go over the torquing sequence so many times until no bolt turns anymore when setting to torque. In my experience you have to do the full sequence at least 5 times until nothing moves anymore. it is tedious on the back when engine is in car. has to be done. otherwise you risk overheating and things bending out of place
do not use the cork gaskets for the front and back, use a thick bead of silicone. I'll check for any manuals/instructions. this came up about 1000 times here already
5. buy a new set of ARP head bolts and intake bolts. do not re-use your old bolts there
6. if the intake gaskets come with an option to block the exhaust crossover, use it. We don't want the intake unneccessarily hot. i'll send a picture when you're at it.
7. mark the bolts where you pulled them oput. I still have trouble with waterpump/timing chain cover bolts. there are about 6 different lengths of bolt for the same thing ... so i spend 1 hour testing which one goes where. everytime. no more :-)
8. clean all surfaces properly where gaskets go on. mechanically and chemically clean (use a scraper and alcohol or cleaner)!

So let us know when you have it all apart :-)
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1964 1/2
302ci, Edelbrock RPM heads, xe268h, 650 speed demon, Hooker Long Tube headers and Flowmaster 40s
Quick Performance Racing 9" rear, Moser axles, 3.5:1 trac-loc from FRPP and T5 transmission.
CSRP disc brakes front and FRPP discs back.
http://www.gascc.ie


Last edited by kalli; 11-29-2010 at 10:08 AM.
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Old 11-29-2010, 04:01 PM   #19
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Great information Guys!!!
GT350R_Klone, thanks for you insight. I chose the xe256 because it looks like from many posts that this is a cam that will give me a great low to mid performance and since I have an automatic C-4 that I would not need a stall converter since this will work with my existing RPM range. Everything else so far is Edelbrock and matched; I like this the best since these parts will all work perfectly together.
I appreciate your offer of the engine hoist and stand but I’m in Southern California, Orange County to be exact. (Not to get confused with the “OC”, it’s not really like that, hell that’s TV!)
Also, at this moment I’m planning on doing this project with the engine in the car and removing the radiator and grill most likely. I would like to work with it out side the engine compartment though…
Kallie, good thoughts on what I WILL DO, definitely all new bolts and mark the ones that come out that will be reused. My memory is shot as it is, let alone try to think I can remember which is which…I will take care to clean all surfaces correctly.
I don’t completely understand the drilling of the holes in the block but once I get the original heads off I bet things will start to become clearer.
I got the Edelbrock intake manifold gaskets for the intake but I’m not sure if these have or don’t have the exhaust crossovers??? I’ll investigate further.
I still need to get a pushrod checker; I will definitely not use the existing pushrods.
-Any specific pushrod checker you recommend?

Thank you both for guiding me in the right direction, I feel much more confident that my Mustang will gallop again…
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Old 11-30-2010, 02:22 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JH_67 View Post
I don’t completely understand the drilling of the holes in the block but once I get the original heads off I bet things will start to become clearer.
I got the Edelbrock intake manifold gaskets for the intake but I’m not sure if these have or don’t have the exhaust crossovers??? I’ll investigate further.
I still need to get a pushrod checker; I will definitely not use the existing pushrods.
-Any specific pushrod checker you recommend?

Thank you both for guiding me in the right direction, I feel much more confident that my Mustang will gallop again…
1. drilling of the block. you'll see what I mean when you read the installation manual, we can discuss then
2. the intake manifold gaskets have each: 4 holes for the intake ports, 2 holes for water jacket (near the outside of gasket) and al the boltholes. right between the inner 2 holes where the bolts would go the gasket might have another hole. that's for the exhaust crossover. if it doesn't have it good, if it has it there might be a small piece of gasket the same shape as the hole with the set. if there is use it.
3. pushrod lenght checker: i bought mine from compcams, they have them in different sizes. you can check with an original pushrod first (just to measure) and see if you are bang on already or in the ballpark. from that we can check which checker to get. it's not unheard of that with changing to the edelbrock kit you don't have to change pushrod size from stock much, however as said the rods themseles have to be changed as they are too soft. soo keep that off for a while
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1964 1/2
302ci, Edelbrock RPM heads, xe268h, 650 speed demon, Hooker Long Tube headers and Flowmaster 40s
Quick Performance Racing 9" rear, Moser axles, 3.5:1 trac-loc from FRPP and T5 transmission.
CSRP disc brakes front and FRPP discs back.
http://www.gascc.ie

kalli is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2010, 02:22 PM
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