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351C v 351W

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Old 08-05-2013, 04:21 PM   #1
JolllyJimmy
 
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Default 351C v 351W

I've been looking for a '67-'69 fastback that I can take on as a project car. I want a daily driver that has some head-turning appeal and is relatively reliable. From what I can see online for the past couple of months (I haven't really been barnstorming or know where to begin doing that..) everything in my price range is going to need a new engine or to be fully rebuilt.

That leads me to the thought that maybe I can just get a solid shell, strip it, and rebuild it. If I don't have to worry about the engine rolling over when it's bought, then I can obviously drop anything in there (I'm not concerned about having an original car, I'd rather have something built to what I want).

What are your thoughts on the 351C versus the 351W and which is a better engine and why? I don't seem to be able to find any good discussions about it online.

As a follow on, if I were to find a car without the engine, whats the best way to find the engine itself?

Thanks all. Much appreciated.

Jimmy
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Old 08-05-2013, 04:30 PM   #2
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I have no experience with the Cleveland. So I can't answer to that part.
I would look on craigslist and bide my time for the "right deal"
keep your eyes on the message boards and racingjunk....
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Old 08-05-2013, 04:36 PM   #3
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The main difference between the two is mainly two things. The 351C has monster heads on it where the 351W does not. Cleveland can produce more power do to the larger heads. The other difference is the Cleveland is considered to be a big block motor where the 351W is considered to be a small block. Never was quite sure on why maybe it's do to the heads or length of the block.

In the long run both are great motors very solid running engines.
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Old 08-05-2013, 06:20 PM   #4
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The argument I've always heard between the two is the 351c has the better stock heads, but the 351w has a better block. If you're using a stock block and heads you will make a bunch more power out of a 351c, but if you plan on going the aftermarket route the two are comparable. 351w's are much more readily available, which is a plus.
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Old 08-05-2013, 06:30 PM   #5
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the cleveland is considered a small block too...it has a sbf bellhousing bolt pattern and it uses the same motor mounts..the big block thing comes in because people say it acts like a big block in terms of power..
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Old 08-05-2013, 08:35 PM   #6
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Quote:
I've been looking for a '67-'69 fastback that I can take on as a project car. I want a daily driver that has some head-turning appeal
I want a daily driver = 351W (or even a 302 for that matter)
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Old 08-05-2013, 10:19 PM   #7
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a 351w isnt a better daily driver than a 351c esp if you dont have a radical build a C is perfectly streetable every day and was used as such in millions of cars in the 60-70s
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Old 08-05-2013, 10:26 PM   #8
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Any of them can be great DD motors run them at factory specs, will get the best MPG that way. Factory specs on my 351c now this is according to the manual says between 15 - 20mpg. Does it get that no most likely not, if you drive it like your grandmother ya maybe.
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Old 08-05-2013, 10:36 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rmodel65 View Post
the cleveland is considered a small block too...it has a sbf bellhousing bolt pattern and it uses the same motor mounts..the big block thing comes in because people say it acts like a big block in terms of power..
+1
I think there are 2 other reasons people sometimes think of the Cleveland as a big block. 1 the later 351M/400 does use the big block bell housing's bolt pattern. 2 the block design is part of the Lima series which includes the 429/460 & 351M/400.
Hopefully my memory is working at the moment...A big advantage the Windsor has is direct compatibility with all the modern pushrod 5.0 aftermarket head development & offerings. Old school comparison IIRC is the W has larger main bearings and a better oiling design.
Advantage for the Cleveland is it has the more efficient canted valve design. 2v heads work well for a daily driver and the 4V heads offer giant intake valves for high rpm applications. Also, the C runs a dry intake meaning no hot coolant passes through it helping to keep it cooler.
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Old 08-05-2013, 10:46 PM   #10
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Found some comparison spec run downs on the engines this might help.

Now a 351 Windsor is really a slightly enlarged 289/302, as it's name implies it comes from Fords "Windsor" engine family (a.k.a. the 90-degree V engine family). The thin-wall cast SMALL BLOCK accepts regular sized spark plugs, uses a timing chain in the block, routes water through the intake manifold, features thin main-bearing caps, a very good oiling system, and uses the same heads for 2V & 4V versions. The heads are are small, utilizing in-line valves with relatively small ports. The valves are 1.78" intake and 1.54" exhaust, i.e. the same size as a 289/302. The valve covers are straight (front to rear), attached by 5 bolts, and when removed you can see 351 cast in the lifter valley. The small side-by side (in-line) valves are the dead give-away.

Engine History & more specs

351 Windsor
  • 5-bolt straight valve covers
  • radiator hose to the intake manifold
  • regular 5/8" spark plugs

The 351 Cleveland, on the other hand, belongs to Ford's 335 engine family. This thin-wall cast BIG SMALL BLOCK uses the smaller 14mm spark plugs, has a separate front cover (bolted to the block) housing the timing chain and routing water - so that water does not go through the intake manifold, features beefy main caps (wide enough to drill for 4-bolt mains), a poor oiling system, and uses different heads for 2V & 4V versions. The heads make all the difference and these fire breathing babies make this motor the legend it is. On the 4V, the valves are HUGE, measuring 2.19" intake and 1.7n" exhaust (don't remember exactly). Valves this large are only possible via a canted valve arrangement, forming what Ford refers to as a "poly-angle" combustion chamber. The valve covers are not straight - the front is flat and parallel to the ground, but a curve twists the rear parallel to the head. They are attached by 8-bolts and when removed, there is a 4 cast into the corner of the 4V and a 2 cast into the corner of the 2V (at least in 1970). The canted valves are the dead giveaway.

351 Cleveland Specs and more info

351 Cleveland
  • 8 bolt 2-plane valve covers
  • radiator hose does not connect to intake
  • small 14mm spark plugs
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Old 08-06-2013, 08:01 AM   #11
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First of all, thank you. Those are all interesting points. I had read the Wikipedia pages a while ago, and didn't think to look again.

Sorry about the confusion of "daily driver". I won't be taking it to work with me every day, but I don't want to be afraid to drive it whenever the mood strikes (a nice day to the office, a weekend to baseball practice, in the evening to the grocery store, etc).

It seems to me, after reading the responses and a few more articles online that the 351C is almost more of a collectors item and would look awesome in a serious resto, but that the 351W would be easier to find/rebuild/maintain. Do you agree? If so, I can check that box and start watching prices and availability (thoughts on quality or price I should keep in mind?).

Regarding the 2V or 4V question, the way I understand it, in a 4V the primaries are smaller and are better for gas mileage and the secondaries are in reserve for when you punch it right? What would you think the difference is in power/sound/mpg between the 2V and the 4V? Or maybe point me in the right direction and I can read up on it?

I read somewhere that the heads on the two are the same and are interchangeable with some light machining. I also read somewhere (maybe wiki?) that the Boss 302 was really just a (heavy) windsor block with cleveland heads. Do any of you have any experience modifying the 351W? Are we talking about needing to take it to an engine guy/shop or can I do it at home with a decent set of tool?

Thanks again. After being a long time reader, nice to be part of the forums for a change.
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Old 08-06-2013, 08:06 AM   #12
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**** EDIT (not sure how to do that yet)

I realize the heads are different, I mean more that they are interchangeable. It's also clearly the Boss 351 and not 302.
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Old 08-06-2013, 09:17 AM   #13
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Quote:
It seems to me, after reading the responses and a few more articles online that the 351C is almost more of a collectors item and would look awesome in a serious resto, but that the 351W would be easier to find/rebuild/maintain. Do you agree? If so, I can check that box and start watching prices and availability (thoughts on quality or price I should keep in mind?).
Pretty much nails it.
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Old 08-06-2013, 09:30 AM   #14
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I also saw this http://www.themustangshop.com/clevor.cfm about the swap of 351C heads to a 351W.
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Old 08-06-2013, 10:37 AM   #15
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ive never had a problem finding a 351c if i wanted to build one. as for the head it swaps over and a few places make new 351c heads like edelbrock, AFD etc AFD has some heads that are 680hp out of the box untouched(assuming you have the rest of the mods to support them)
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Old 08-06-2013, 11:13 AM   #16
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Other option is just buy a 351w crate engine form ford racing, or even a 5.0 Coyote swap. Hell you can get a 427 crate engine from them for 6k. Might be cheaper than hunting down a rebuilding one, unless you want an original date correct engine.
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Old 08-06-2013, 03:17 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JolllyJimmy View Post
I also saw this http://www.themustangshop.com/clevor.cfm about the swap of 351C heads to a 351W.
That was the hot ticket 20 years ago when aftermarket W heads were not plentiful. Been there, done that, moved on to AFRs...
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Old 08-06-2013, 03:17 PM
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