E85
10-18-2007, 09:53 PM
#1
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2007
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Posts: 53
E85
Has anyone set up there car to run on E85? I know to do it I will need a new fuel pump, fuel lines and carb. But that's OK, because I will be putting a new motor in at that time anyways. Do I need to change anything with the fuel tank or sending unit? How about the exhaust system? Will unburned fuel hurt anything in the engine or exhaust?
So here's why I'm asking all this. I read the article in the most recent Car Craft magazine about the person building a 700 hp blown 383 stroker on E85. I want to do something similiar, but better. I've got a 460 I want to build to run with a 6-71 blower on E85. I'm thinking that if I run E85 with about 9:1 compression ratio I should be able to run about 11-12 psi of boost. With this setup I think I can come close to the amazing 1,000 hp mark in a streetable combination. I know this is going to cost money and take some serious work to get it right, but it's not my first engine rebuild and i think I can get it done. The engine work and theory shouldn't be much of a problem for me, but I don't have any experience with E85 so I'm looking for some advice there...I'm not in any huge hurry because the Cleveland is still a good solid motor for now. I'm thinking I want this engine done in about a year and ready to go in next winter.
So here's why I'm asking all this. I read the article in the most recent Car Craft magazine about the person building a 700 hp blown 383 stroker on E85. I want to do something similiar, but better. I've got a 460 I want to build to run with a 6-71 blower on E85. I'm thinking that if I run E85 with about 9:1 compression ratio I should be able to run about 11-12 psi of boost. With this setup I think I can come close to the amazing 1,000 hp mark in a streetable combination. I know this is going to cost money and take some serious work to get it right, but it's not my first engine rebuild and i think I can get it done. The engine work and theory shouldn't be much of a problem for me, but I don't have any experience with E85 so I'm looking for some advice there...I'm not in any huge hurry because the Cleveland is still a good solid motor for now. I'm thinking I want this engine done in about a year and ready to go in next winter.
10-18-2007, 10:46 PM
#2
6th Gear Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location:
Posts: 8,162
RE: E85
You need more then a new carb fuel pump and lines your compression ratio is too low for it.E85 has a octane rating of 108 youll need a 12:1 or youll spark knock bad.I wouldnt run it youll get worse milage then normal gas.If you want to be different look in to propane people from new zealand and aus use it to make some huge power all motor.
10-18-2007, 11:52 PM
#3
6th Gear Member
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: California
Posts: 10,468
RE: E85
The only reason to run E85 is to get away with really high compression ratios or a lot of boost. E85 not only is higher octane, but it's mostly(85%) alcohol so it will burn richer and cooler. E85 is mostly a waste, it's not a good fuel, certainly not better than gasoline, especially when you factor in the economic implication that it's driven the price of corn up, which is a feed stock, so the price of eggs, milk, chicken, beef and pork have all gone up as a result. Also when you look at the "big picture" the total energy that's used to produce, transportand store E85 vs the power that you get out of it doesn't make it any better than gasoline, but it costs more per mile. The mileage won't be good either, especially not for the money you spend buying it. Unless you need to run E85 because you have a wild engine, you're better off building a turbo 460/stroker on pump gas, you could build it at 7.5:1 with good heads etc and prolly get close to 1,000hp out of it if not more on premium pump fuel. Trying to use E85 with a roots blower has other issues, since as the boost goes up on an already inefficient blower, the thermal (in)efficiency kills it. You start to reach a point where raising the boost higher on a roots blower does nothing, because the boost pressure gain is offset by a tremendous heat increase, so you have to go to a larger blower in order to turn it slower to get the same boost but regain the thermal efficiency. If you really want to make 1,000hp, build the 460 as a beastly stroker with heads etc, and then just spray it with nitrous and run a seperate fuel cell to provide C10 or something for the nitrous, that way you can have a pump gas street car(albeit one with horrible mileage) that you can spray a large shot with at the track(in multiple stages if you want). Though any of these requires you to have a lot of money
10-19-2007, 08:19 AM
#4
Mach I Section Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: round abouts these parts
Posts: 7,140
RE: E85
dude....E85 is a waste, you cant even drink it...moonshine for the MTFW
sorry my redneck came out......no but seriously there is no sense in making your car run off e85.
sorry my redneck came out......no but seriously there is no sense in making your car run off e85.
10-19-2007, 07:11 PM
#5
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Join Date: Aug 2007
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Posts: 53
RE: E85
Where do you guys get the idea that there isn't an advantage to E85. It's basically race fuel at the cost of pump gas. Yea, I know I have to run more gas for the same amount of power but its worth it since it has so much higher octane rating. I plan on running a ton of boost and making alot of streetable power so its the best and cheapest way to make power. I don't want to run Nitrous. I want the power all the time, not just when I push the button which I could only do at full throttle. I want the power to be able to roll on smoothly not instantly there like Nitrous. Maybe I need a little higher compression ratio with the engine like 10 to 1 with boost, but I can still do it.
As far as E85 being bad for the economy, are you crazy? Wouldn't you rather support American farmers than middle eastern oil rigs and multimillion dollar oil companies? Yes, it may make some other of our costs go up, but at least most of that money stays in American's pockets. Now, I say this, but this really isn't the reason I'm building an E85 motor. I'm doing it simply to make alot of power on a cheap fuel.
As far as E85 being bad for the economy, are you crazy? Wouldn't you rather support American farmers than middle eastern oil rigs and multimillion dollar oil companies? Yes, it may make some other of our costs go up, but at least most of that money stays in American's pockets. Now, I say this, but this really isn't the reason I'm building an E85 motor. I'm doing it simply to make alot of power on a cheap fuel.
10-20-2007, 09:15 AM
#7
Yukon Cornelius
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: deep in the heart of dixie GEORGIA
Posts: 11,808
RE: E85
ORIGINAL: 69mach1377
PBS's saturday car show last week showed all that is required to use e85...thousands of dollars.
Also, e85 is a waste of corn from an engineering point of view.
PBS's saturday car show last week showed all that is required to use e85...thousands of dollars.
Also, e85 is a waste of corn from an engineering point of view.
thats why we should take cuba and use there sugar cane cops for the production of ethanol
10-20-2007, 09:44 AM
#8
5th Gear Member
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Marquette Mi
Posts: 3,566
RE: E85
Ok. Going to chime in and agre with Opie and wonder why someone continues to post very incorrect info. Heres the deal on E85. It wont make a low compression engine knock. Knock is from pre ignition, meaning its an uncontrolled burn that isnt ignighted by the spark plug. E85 will only knock when it is run in an engine over 13:1. Low compression engines arent known for knocking unless they have oil in the cylinders and are completely out of tune and running lean or pig rich. Pig righ will tend to make them diesel, or run after the ignition is shut off.
Corn prices going up because of Ethanol? Well yeah a little bit. Prices for the stuff you buy going up because of ethanol production? No not really. Prices going up because it is now $3.50 a gallon for diesel fuel that moves your stuff to market? YES. Fuel costs are driving the prices up NOT ETHANOL. The same people who are telling you its ethanol are the ones getting filthy rich from over pricing gas and diesel. they are the same ones who are telling you it isnt viable, that it isnt good for the environment, and all that other crap.
Of all the corn we make here in the USA, 50% of it goes to feed cattle. 18% of our corn crop is used to make ethanol. Once you make ethanol from the corn, you still have a very good cattle feed left over. Infact some of the best beef from Nebraska (where I grew up on a farm) is raised in feedlots that feed them the left overs from the ethanol plants. So, woudnt it make more sense to use 50% of our corn to make ethanol and feed cattle since it does both?
Besides corn there are other crops we can grow that will produce more ethanol per acre planted. We are using corn because we have a huge SURPLUS of it. We give the stuff away to small countries. We give wheat away to places like Ethiopia and Chad. They dont buy it, we give it to them in aid. We have so much of the stuff we can afford to do that.
On the environmental part. Ethanol burns clean, leaving no hydrocarbons, only Co2. Gasoline leaves hydrocarbon and carbon monoxide, and oxides of nitrogen which are very detrimental to our health and the health of the planet. Oil is a pollutant from the moment it leaves the ground, ethanol is bio degradeable. You wont hear of a ethanol tanker spilling and killing marine wildlife, but its far too often that a tanker breaks up and oils down a beach or coastline. Once is too much for that. Some of you are too young to remember the Exxon Valdez, you should do a google search and read up on what efffect an oil spill has on the environment. Dont read what Exxon said, read what the people who cleaned it up said. Ethanol is green, meaning it isnt bad for the environment. Its a renewable source where oil is finite, meaning oil has an end. Once its gone, its simply gone.
Economy. If you put money in the bottom of the economy, that would be the farmers, the money will increase the wealth of everyone up the chain. Trickle down economics that Regan tried was bunk. It doesnt get sent back down, but it will work its way back up. Farmers are the base of our economy, without the food and things like cotton, we wouldnt be as wealthy a country as we are today.
Havent you been listening to the news the last couple years? Oil companies have been making BILLIONS in profit, that is BILLIONS over what it costs them to produce, distribute, and sell fuel. They have been showing record profits since Katrina, simply because they have jacked the prices up when everyone needed gas, and they left them up there even when the demand did not warrant it. Katrina was an opportunity for them to gouge us, and they continue to gouge us because they can. We dont control the market, they give us a price and we either pay it or walk. Friends working in the oil fields and refineries said they shut down for one day during the hurricane. The news said it was weeks, it was one day. You are being mislead by the people who have money and want more of yours.
Ethanol is different from Methanol. Methanol is highly corrosive, takes more fuel to make the same power than ethanol, and requires methanol specific fuel system parts, like pumps and carbs/injectors. Ethanol is not as corrosive, does not require dedicated fuel systems, you can run gasoline or ethanol through the same fuel system. if you have a high compression engine, you can get better performance, cooler engine temps, and more power by running ethanol rather than race gas. E85 is $2.50 a gallon here. 92 octane is $3.35, race gas is $7.50. So if you have a race car with 10:1-13:1 compresion, or a blower/turbo, by switching to the ethanol carb, or larger injectors and retunning for ethanol, you wont need to pay more than twice as much for fuel to run your car.
On the other hand, if you have some ground you can plant on, you can grow enough to make your own fuel, distill it yourself, and only pay a few cents per gallon. Oil companies dont want you to know this. They want to keep you in the dark and feed you bullsh**. They want you to be a mushroom, since that is what you do to grow mushrooms. They want you to stay dependent on the oil they bring over from the gulf, and in from Canada. That way they can live the life of luxury at your expense. They are spreading disinformation and they are using the media to do it. The media doesnt know the difference between a Mustang and a Civic, they couldnt tell you the difference between gas and ethanol either.
Spreading that BS over the internet when you actually know nothing about it is no better than some talking head spewing what he is told to say because it makes ratings go up. Infact its worse because if its being said at the grrass roots level like this, then its going to take longer to make the change. Word of mouth does more good or damage than any amount of advertising. So if you dont knwo what you are talking about SHUT UP. Thanks,.
Corn prices going up because of Ethanol? Well yeah a little bit. Prices for the stuff you buy going up because of ethanol production? No not really. Prices going up because it is now $3.50 a gallon for diesel fuel that moves your stuff to market? YES. Fuel costs are driving the prices up NOT ETHANOL. The same people who are telling you its ethanol are the ones getting filthy rich from over pricing gas and diesel. they are the same ones who are telling you it isnt viable, that it isnt good for the environment, and all that other crap.
Of all the corn we make here in the USA, 50% of it goes to feed cattle. 18% of our corn crop is used to make ethanol. Once you make ethanol from the corn, you still have a very good cattle feed left over. Infact some of the best beef from Nebraska (where I grew up on a farm) is raised in feedlots that feed them the left overs from the ethanol plants. So, woudnt it make more sense to use 50% of our corn to make ethanol and feed cattle since it does both?
Besides corn there are other crops we can grow that will produce more ethanol per acre planted. We are using corn because we have a huge SURPLUS of it. We give the stuff away to small countries. We give wheat away to places like Ethiopia and Chad. They dont buy it, we give it to them in aid. We have so much of the stuff we can afford to do that.
On the environmental part. Ethanol burns clean, leaving no hydrocarbons, only Co2. Gasoline leaves hydrocarbon and carbon monoxide, and oxides of nitrogen which are very detrimental to our health and the health of the planet. Oil is a pollutant from the moment it leaves the ground, ethanol is bio degradeable. You wont hear of a ethanol tanker spilling and killing marine wildlife, but its far too often that a tanker breaks up and oils down a beach or coastline. Once is too much for that. Some of you are too young to remember the Exxon Valdez, you should do a google search and read up on what efffect an oil spill has on the environment. Dont read what Exxon said, read what the people who cleaned it up said. Ethanol is green, meaning it isnt bad for the environment. Its a renewable source where oil is finite, meaning oil has an end. Once its gone, its simply gone.
Economy. If you put money in the bottom of the economy, that would be the farmers, the money will increase the wealth of everyone up the chain. Trickle down economics that Regan tried was bunk. It doesnt get sent back down, but it will work its way back up. Farmers are the base of our economy, without the food and things like cotton, we wouldnt be as wealthy a country as we are today.
Havent you been listening to the news the last couple years? Oil companies have been making BILLIONS in profit, that is BILLIONS over what it costs them to produce, distribute, and sell fuel. They have been showing record profits since Katrina, simply because they have jacked the prices up when everyone needed gas, and they left them up there even when the demand did not warrant it. Katrina was an opportunity for them to gouge us, and they continue to gouge us because they can. We dont control the market, they give us a price and we either pay it or walk. Friends working in the oil fields and refineries said they shut down for one day during the hurricane. The news said it was weeks, it was one day. You are being mislead by the people who have money and want more of yours.
Ethanol is different from Methanol. Methanol is highly corrosive, takes more fuel to make the same power than ethanol, and requires methanol specific fuel system parts, like pumps and carbs/injectors. Ethanol is not as corrosive, does not require dedicated fuel systems, you can run gasoline or ethanol through the same fuel system. if you have a high compression engine, you can get better performance, cooler engine temps, and more power by running ethanol rather than race gas. E85 is $2.50 a gallon here. 92 octane is $3.35, race gas is $7.50. So if you have a race car with 10:1-13:1 compresion, or a blower/turbo, by switching to the ethanol carb, or larger injectors and retunning for ethanol, you wont need to pay more than twice as much for fuel to run your car.
On the other hand, if you have some ground you can plant on, you can grow enough to make your own fuel, distill it yourself, and only pay a few cents per gallon. Oil companies dont want you to know this. They want to keep you in the dark and feed you bullsh**. They want you to be a mushroom, since that is what you do to grow mushrooms. They want you to stay dependent on the oil they bring over from the gulf, and in from Canada. That way they can live the life of luxury at your expense. They are spreading disinformation and they are using the media to do it. The media doesnt know the difference between a Mustang and a Civic, they couldnt tell you the difference between gas and ethanol either.
Spreading that BS over the internet when you actually know nothing about it is no better than some talking head spewing what he is told to say because it makes ratings go up. Infact its worse because if its being said at the grrass roots level like this, then its going to take longer to make the change. Word of mouth does more good or damage than any amount of advertising. So if you dont knwo what you are talking about SHUT UP. Thanks,.
10-20-2007, 09:56 AM
#9
4th Gear Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location:
Posts: 1,494
RE: E85
Thumpin, you have waaaayyyy too much time on your hands!!! 
On the other hand, you make alotta good points and I agree with you on about 99% of the stuff you said. The only thing I disagree with is corn affecting feed prices for livestock. They have gone up substantially due to ethanol production. I know this for a fact because my family own several buisnesses in the dairy industry, and this is a huge issue to all dairys on both small and large scale operations.
On the other hand, you make alotta good points and I agree with you on about 99% of the stuff you said. The only thing I disagree with is corn affecting feed prices for livestock. They have gone up substantially due to ethanol production. I know this for a fact because my family own several buisnesses in the dairy industry, and this is a huge issue to all dairys on both small and large scale operations.
10-20-2007, 10:11 AM
#10
1st Gear Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location:
Posts: 53
RE: E85
Thanks Thumpin. That is the kind of information that is needed. But I do know that some fuel system mods are required because it is more corrosive than gas. I know it's not as bad as methanol, but it is still corrosive. So back to my main question...Can I run E85 in my stock steel gas tank? I already plan on replacing fuel lines and putting an electric pump in. Thanks for your help.
