351 Windsor 65 mustang!!!!!!!!!!
11-19-2008, 04:02 PM
#1
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: california
Posts: 18
351 Windsor 65 mustang!!!!!!!!!!
Anyone have a 351 Windsor in a 65 mustang? I do, and really want to rebuild it soon to get some serious horse
. Does anyone know any good power set ups?
Im looking to install aftermarket heads. (any suggestions? max cc? Which will provide the most power?)
Carburetor-(CFM, demon, regular holley...?)
I already have a pretty hot cam in the engine.
Water pumps-(electric? stick with mechanical?)\
Are there any benefits to a serpentine system compared to the regular setup?
Intake manifold?
How much horsepower can I gain through eliminating the fan in the belt setup?
Headers? I already have some longtubes on it but they are knocking against the shock towers. Has anyone run into similar trouble but have solved it? I was thinkin about replacing the motor mounts to adjust the block or cut the shock towers? If I cut the shock towers how much will the structural integrity be compromised? I know I could possibly solve it with a pair of shorty headers but I dont want to lose hp from them.
Any setup suggestions would be much appreciated
. Does anyone know any good power set ups?Im looking to install aftermarket heads. (any suggestions? max cc? Which will provide the most power?)
Carburetor-(CFM, demon, regular holley...?)
I already have a pretty hot cam in the engine.
Water pumps-(electric? stick with mechanical?)\
Are there any benefits to a serpentine system compared to the regular setup?
Intake manifold?
How much horsepower can I gain through eliminating the fan in the belt setup?
Headers? I already have some longtubes on it but they are knocking against the shock towers. Has anyone run into similar trouble but have solved it? I was thinkin about replacing the motor mounts to adjust the block or cut the shock towers? If I cut the shock towers how much will the structural integrity be compromised? I know I could possibly solve it with a pair of shorty headers but I dont want to lose hp from them.
Any setup suggestions would be much appreciated
11-19-2008, 06:10 PM
#2
6th Gear Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Cork, Ireland
Posts: 6,417
headers I hear is a common problem as 351 is very tight for a 64-66. I would never cut on the shock towers unless you bring the stability back in.
I don't know for a fact but I always thought long tube headers is better for more torque and shorties better for peak HP. Could be wrong though.
Talk to JMD, he has a 408 (351 stroker) in his 65 with a lot of mods. But be aware that a decent 351 will break all stock components in the car. gearbox, rear axle ... at least it should be able to ;-)
I don't know for a fact but I always thought long tube headers is better for more torque and shorties better for peak HP. Could be wrong though.
Talk to JMD, he has a 408 (351 stroker) in his 65 with a lot of mods. But be aware that a decent 351 will break all stock components in the car. gearbox, rear axle ... at least it should be able to ;-)
11-20-2008, 11:39 AM
#4
5th Gear Member
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Texas Hill Country
Posts: 2,100
Ok, I will try and give my opinion in the order in which you asked, but I am also firing back questions to help narrow this down.
Q: Anyone have a 351 Windsor in a 65 mustang? I do, and really want to rebuild it soon to get some serious horse. Does anyone know any good power set ups?
A: I do not have a 65, so I cannot help much on that. I would think your main issues will be headers due to the increased deck height 9.5 vs the short deck of a 302. As for power set ups, that is going to total depend on what cam and heads you pick. What is your budget?
Q: I'm looking to install aftermarket heads. (any suggestions? max cc? Which will provide the most power?)
A: I love my AFR heads for the performance they have, but their valves suck. I would seriously consider putting valve lash caps on what ever heads you get. It is just cheap insurance against what I went thru. As for size, 185cc is about what you want for a 351CID. Anything more and you are going to have hell tuning it at low rpm if you can get it to do anything but dead rich. 165cc are too small for that motor, but about right for a 302. Combustion chamber size is going to depend on a ton of other things like your pistons, head gasket, and desired compression ratio. What pistons are you going to run (PCH, dish, etc)? What compression ratio do you want? Are you going to run standard stroke?
Q: Carburetor-(CFM, demon, regular holley...?)
A: I like my Holley. It is VERY customizable, but you can get lost if you do not know what you are doing. Do not get anything more than a 650cfm. Anything more is going to give you hell in tuning if you can get it to do anything but be rich down low. Think four barrel, but what type of secondaries you want depends on what you are doing. You probably want vacuum secondaries, but that is not a given. What type of tranny do you have? How are you going to use the car?
Q: Water pumps-(electric? stick with mechanical?)
A: I prefer to stay mechanical when every possible. Some will disagree, but it is proven technology and you are not going to get much performance increase from going electrical unless you are trying to race it.
Q:Are there any benefits to a serpentine system compared to the regular setup?
A: No opinion. What every is easiest for you. If you are trying to stay classic, stay with a v belt.
Q: Intake manifold?
A: I LOVE my Edelbrock Air Gap, but it is a SOB to get to fit under the hood. If it is too tall for your car, go with a nice dual plane. Single planes are a PIA on street cars.
Q: How much horsepower can I gain through eliminating the fan in the belt setup?
A: Again, I like to stay mechanical if at all possible. Remember, if you go electrical water pump or radiator fan, you will need to dramatically increase your alternator which is going to drag the motor. You would get a little advantage with electrical, but it is not worth the trouble IMO.
Q: Headers? I already have some longtubes on it but they are knocking against the shock towers. Has anyone run into similar trouble but have solved it? I was thinkin about replacing the motor mounts to adjust the block or cut the shock towers? If I cut the shock towers how much will the structural integrity be compromised? I know I could possibly solve it with a pair of shorty headers but I dont want to lose hp from them.
A: I like my Hooker Comp headers longtubes. They performance better than most anything and tuck up nice under the car. I suggest at least a 2.5" dual exhaust if not a 3". I went 3" all the way back and it sounds and performs better than any exhaust I have had. You are going to have to call and see what headers will fit you car. Some will nor work with power steering or a manual tranny. What every you get, buy the ceramic coated or get them ceramic coated. It drops the under hood temp a bunch and helps fight rust.
Q: Any setup suggestions would be much appreciated
A: You need to start thinking about a cam, lifters, and rockers. The valve train is the brains of your motor and should be the first step not the last. You should also consider igintion, rotating assembly, balancer, girdles, and fly wheel/flex plate. You should also talk with someone who knows what they are doing or buy a dyno program to test combination out with. You are flying blind right now and may not hit your goals, if you have any, or spend a bunch of useless money. Buying parts with no goal and no idea how they are going to affect your end goal is a very very very bad idea. Parts cost a bunch of money. You can spend $20k on a motor easy. I spent months on Prosim's Dyno program before I bought a part. I also took it to a engine builder buddy and went through it all with him. I then created a spreadsheet with a complete list of parts and prices. After my heart started beating again and my wife unloaded the gun, I started saving money and buying parts. Best advice is to state a goal (horsepower, torque, rpm redline, and fuel type) and make a plan on how to get there.
Q: Anyone have a 351 Windsor in a 65 mustang? I do, and really want to rebuild it soon to get some serious horse. Does anyone know any good power set ups?
A: I do not have a 65, so I cannot help much on that. I would think your main issues will be headers due to the increased deck height 9.5 vs the short deck of a 302. As for power set ups, that is going to total depend on what cam and heads you pick. What is your budget?
Q: I'm looking to install aftermarket heads. (any suggestions? max cc? Which will provide the most power?)
A: I love my AFR heads for the performance they have, but their valves suck. I would seriously consider putting valve lash caps on what ever heads you get. It is just cheap insurance against what I went thru. As for size, 185cc is about what you want for a 351CID. Anything more and you are going to have hell tuning it at low rpm if you can get it to do anything but dead rich. 165cc are too small for that motor, but about right for a 302. Combustion chamber size is going to depend on a ton of other things like your pistons, head gasket, and desired compression ratio. What pistons are you going to run (PCH, dish, etc)? What compression ratio do you want? Are you going to run standard stroke?
Q: Carburetor-(CFM, demon, regular holley...?)
A: I like my Holley. It is VERY customizable, but you can get lost if you do not know what you are doing. Do not get anything more than a 650cfm. Anything more is going to give you hell in tuning if you can get it to do anything but be rich down low. Think four barrel, but what type of secondaries you want depends on what you are doing. You probably want vacuum secondaries, but that is not a given. What type of tranny do you have? How are you going to use the car?
Q: Water pumps-(electric? stick with mechanical?)
A: I prefer to stay mechanical when every possible. Some will disagree, but it is proven technology and you are not going to get much performance increase from going electrical unless you are trying to race it.
Q:Are there any benefits to a serpentine system compared to the regular setup?
A: No opinion. What every is easiest for you. If you are trying to stay classic, stay with a v belt.
Q: Intake manifold?
A: I LOVE my Edelbrock Air Gap, but it is a SOB to get to fit under the hood. If it is too tall for your car, go with a nice dual plane. Single planes are a PIA on street cars.
Q: How much horsepower can I gain through eliminating the fan in the belt setup?
A: Again, I like to stay mechanical if at all possible. Remember, if you go electrical water pump or radiator fan, you will need to dramatically increase your alternator which is going to drag the motor. You would get a little advantage with electrical, but it is not worth the trouble IMO.
Q: Headers? I already have some longtubes on it but they are knocking against the shock towers. Has anyone run into similar trouble but have solved it? I was thinkin about replacing the motor mounts to adjust the block or cut the shock towers? If I cut the shock towers how much will the structural integrity be compromised? I know I could possibly solve it with a pair of shorty headers but I dont want to lose hp from them.
A: I like my Hooker Comp headers longtubes. They performance better than most anything and tuck up nice under the car. I suggest at least a 2.5" dual exhaust if not a 3". I went 3" all the way back and it sounds and performs better than any exhaust I have had. You are going to have to call and see what headers will fit you car. Some will nor work with power steering or a manual tranny. What every you get, buy the ceramic coated or get them ceramic coated. It drops the under hood temp a bunch and helps fight rust.
Q: Any setup suggestions would be much appreciated
A: You need to start thinking about a cam, lifters, and rockers. The valve train is the brains of your motor and should be the first step not the last. You should also consider igintion, rotating assembly, balancer, girdles, and fly wheel/flex plate. You should also talk with someone who knows what they are doing or buy a dyno program to test combination out with. You are flying blind right now and may not hit your goals, if you have any, or spend a bunch of useless money. Buying parts with no goal and no idea how they are going to affect your end goal is a very very very bad idea. Parts cost a bunch of money. You can spend $20k on a motor easy. I spent months on Prosim's Dyno program before I bought a part. I also took it to a engine builder buddy and went through it all with him. I then created a spreadsheet with a complete list of parts and prices. After my heart started beating again and my wife unloaded the gun, I started saving money and buying parts. Best advice is to state a goal (horsepower, torque, rpm redline, and fuel type) and make a plan on how to get there.
Last edited by urban_cowboy; 11-20-2008 at 02:45 PM.
11-20-2008, 09:29 PM
#6
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: california
Posts: 18
Well, first off, I want to thank you all for your extensive posts.
I've had the car since high school, and just graduated college. Just landed a job and actually have some money to drop on my baby. Budget is not an issue, and I want to do things up right.
I used and abused the car for 8 years. when I first got it, it was in near perfect condition with a hot engine. Didnt know anything about it but learned myself and started to take auto shop classes. Never had any problems with it except frying up part of my wiring under the hood. I love to take freeway on ramps as hard as I can, like to light up the tires(which was easy and also got me in a lot of trouble), take it through windy roads, etc. I learned the suspension up and down and know what I want to do with that. I am now moving on to mastering the engine. I want this car to perform as best it can.
so my main goal:
Creating a restomod-getting as much hp out of an 351w and having it handle like its on rails. I want to drive it like steve mc queen.
I want to do this build right, and i dont expect to get it done in a month. I willing to take as much time with it as it needs. I want to learn and take each step slowly. My planning will start today. I will check out that dyno program that you have. Thank you for your help! I appreciate it.
I've had the car since high school, and just graduated college. Just landed a job and actually have some money to drop on my baby. Budget is not an issue, and I want to do things up right.
I used and abused the car for 8 years. when I first got it, it was in near perfect condition with a hot engine. Didnt know anything about it but learned myself and started to take auto shop classes. Never had any problems with it except frying up part of my wiring under the hood. I love to take freeway on ramps as hard as I can, like to light up the tires(which was easy and also got me in a lot of trouble), take it through windy roads, etc. I learned the suspension up and down and know what I want to do with that. I am now moving on to mastering the engine. I want this car to perform as best it can.
so my main goal:
Creating a restomod-getting as much hp out of an 351w and having it handle like its on rails. I want to drive it like steve mc queen.
I want to do this build right, and i dont expect to get it done in a month. I willing to take as much time with it as it needs. I want to learn and take each step slowly. My planning will start today. I will check out that dyno program that you have. Thank you for your help! I appreciate it.
11-20-2008, 11:15 PM
#7
2nd Gear Member
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Ontario & Michigan
Posts: 315
Engine wise you probably should be looking at a stroker kit, I won't go into as much detail as urban cowboy, but if you want maximum power from the 351W a stroker kit is the best way to go. I'd suggest a 393 or 408 kit. If you want the best suspension and handling you may want to look into a Heidt's, Global West or Total Control kit.
Last edited by REAVER117; 11-20-2008 at 11:17 PM.
11-21-2008, 12:30 AM
#8
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location:
Posts: 16
I'll share a bit of history of my car that might be helpful for a power consideration. My 351 came with the car and the fella I bought it from had raced it at the local strip. It came set up with about 12:1 domes, a comp cams 306 hyd. cam, the stock 69 heads with 60cc chambers (ported nicely though), C4 Auto (modified), and a Holley 750 DP on a Holley Street Dominator hi-rise. Not sure what gears he ran but believed to be in the 4:11 range. A typical race set up for the 70's and 80's which is when he ran it.
When cleaning out the car after purchase I found some of his last time slips in the glove box from about 1987, his best run on the slips was about a 11.17 at about 115 MPH. That was with no real suspension or traction mods, all through a stock 9 inch axle.
The cam and carb setup he had did not present me much for street manners so I detuned compression ratio and went to a comp 280H with a 650 carb. It is still a handfull, but idles better and a bit better heat control, I run a high flow mechanical pump.
The headers did present a slight fitment issue but a slight mod to the shock tower required no cutting or strength issue with the Headman set I am using now.
Have fun with the horsepower but as is suggested in the thread, you will probably need to modify supports, suspension, axles etc... the higher you go...
When cleaning out the car after purchase I found some of his last time slips in the glove box from about 1987, his best run on the slips was about a 11.17 at about 115 MPH. That was with no real suspension or traction mods, all through a stock 9 inch axle.
The cam and carb setup he had did not present me much for street manners so I detuned compression ratio and went to a comp 280H with a 650 carb. It is still a handfull, but idles better and a bit better heat control, I run a high flow mechanical pump.
The headers did present a slight fitment issue but a slight mod to the shock tower required no cutting or strength issue with the Headman set I am using now.
Have fun with the horsepower but as is suggested in the thread, you will probably need to modify supports, suspension, axles etc... the higher you go...
11-21-2008, 12:54 AM
#9
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: california
Posts: 18
yea, I am definately going to go with the full global west set up, up front. Just got done installing the 5 leaf rear springs, and moving to the front to disassemble the old suspension.
transmission preference?
AOD vs T-5?
transmission preference?
AOD vs T-5?
11-21-2008, 01:53 AM
#10
2nd Gear Member
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Ontario & Michigan
Posts: 315
I'm guessing most will suggest the T5, it's a pretty easy conversion, it'll be more efficient than the AOD and it's more fun. Although it could be a bit more expensive if you don't have an original manual transmission car.