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pinion angle or driveline?

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Old 01-12-2009, 04:26 PM   #41
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Default Seriously WTF!!

Okay so Denny's drive line said that my bearing caps must be 1" all ford 8" rear ends are designed to take a 1" bearing cap...Is this correct...I dont trust any one source anymore.

My bearing caps are 1 1/8" or 1.125 does this mean I'm trying to fit a 1.125 cap into a receiver that's made for 1"...

Seriously WTF?

-Gun
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Old 01-12-2009, 05:43 PM   #42
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There's only three choices: 1 1/16, 1 1/8, 1 3/16. Measure using this diagram and then measure the cap diameter on your driveshaft. Shouldn't it be 1 1/16?

Click the image to open in full size.
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Old 01-12-2009, 05:53 PM   #43
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uhh lower picture looks way to short. i don't know how much the shaft inside (the output shaft) protrudes, but it cannot be much according to upper picture. i believe 3/4" is the magical number. according to the fella who rebuild my T5 it will cause vibration if the yoke s too far out which kinda makes sense. was it behaving any better before you cut the fella?
same here: I invested money in DS and shipping. then ordered the wrong u-joints twice from states because me or shop didn't have numbers right. then managed to get a few from UK to measure myself in the shop before I bought. i'd say the whole lot cost me the same as a new one of Dennys not including shipping :-(
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Old 01-12-2009, 06:41 PM   #44
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I though he said 1" maybe he said it had to be 1 1/16... The 1 1/8th seem to fit perfect but that hard to see. I'll call em again tomorrow and see whats up.

Kalli the upper picture was zero play. I probably would have shattered the tail housing backing out of the driveway like that so I never tried it out. Those splines on the output shaft are pretty long I would hate to think it has to be within a 1/4 inch. If this thing really needs 1/4" accuracy ya'll could have saved me a grip of money by mentioning that earlier...
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Old 01-13-2009, 12:12 PM   #45
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I talked to denny's DS again and the cap size is indeed 1 1/8 I must have misunderstood him. SO bearing caps checkout.
Ill see if can get the car to a shop today and see if they can find any issues.

ill let you guys know what happens.

-Gun
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Old 01-13-2009, 03:17 PM   #46
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Right on!

Bayshore really has their crap together! It was 36 bucks well spent.

Their angle finder was accurate to about 1/4 deg

DS angle is 0
Trans angle is -2.75
diff angle is -4.0
Difference is 1.25

Computer calculations using my DS lengths and diameter and pinion angle showed that Driveline torsional were out of limit starting at 4000 rpm (DS rpm)...

In reality the vibration is very noticeable at 4200 rpm

A 1 deg shim on rear end was recommended bringing rear end to -3 deg for a .25 deg difference.

Im gonna scare up a 1 deg shim and go from there.

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Old 01-13-2009, 04:09 PM   #47
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But I can't get a 1 deg shim....So they tell me.

Anyone know what I could do?

Anyone know where I can get a 1 deg shim that's 2.5" wide

What other options do I have?

**EDIT** whoo Summit had some 1deg shims so I got those!

I'll let you know how that goes!

-Gun
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Old 01-13-2009, 08:15 PM   #48
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Old 01-13-2009, 08:33 PM   #49
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-Scott

4 Wheel Drive Parts Wholesale Is 10 minutes from my house...they could only get me 2.5 deg shims in 2.5" width.

Summit saved my bacon they had the 1 deg in 2.5" width so that's all taken care of.

So that leaves just one question...

How exactly do I install these shims so they force the end of the pinion up 1 deg so it now sits at -3 deg instead of -4 deg

and by negative (-) I mean the pinion yoke (where the drive shaft connects to) is pointed down towards the ground at 4 deg.

I hope that's totally clear.

-Gun
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Old 01-13-2009, 09:23 PM   #50
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Great thread. Tell me more about the computer calculation on the "Driveline torsional"...

I just set the pinion angle at -3* and went with it when installing my new spring perches. Tell us more about how to determine the appropriate pinion angle for minimal driveline vibration.

If you are wanting to decrease your pinion angle to the ground (i.e. rise the pinion), which I think is what you are saying, I would think you would put the thicker end of the wedge shim in the front with an axle mounting above the leaf springs. It is opposite when you do a leaf spring over design like the jeep and bronco guys do for a cheap lift.
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Old 01-13-2009, 09:40 PM   #51
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Yes I need to raise the pinion (-4 to -3) so it better matches the angle of the trans (-2.75) now it will only be off .25deg.

That software is provided by dana and is publicly available...lets see.... here we go
http://www2.dana.com/expert/wc.dll?cvsp~Dedsang~

READ>>>When it ask for driven angle in my case its actually 4 deg UP because you follow the DS line from front to back in my case (yoke is DOWN......DS sits at 0 deg....yoke goes UP to meet rear end) thats what I think is going on there. Thats how we did it at the shop.

Have fun with it.

-Gun
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Old 01-13-2009, 09:41 PM   #52
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I apologize if I am reading this wrong, but what I read is that your transmission is pointing down and your rear end yoke is also point down? To be correct your trans is typically pointing down and the rear end is pointing up the same amount. For example if the trans is pointing down at 2.75 degrees then the rear end should be pointing up at 2.75 degrees. To correct at trans down at 2.75 and a rear down at 4 degrees you would need a 6.75 degree shim (I would suggest a 6 degree). You would put the thicker end of the angled shim between the leaf spring and the spring perch on the rear end with the thicker portion of the shim toward the front.
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Old 01-13-2009, 09:48 PM   #53
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-Cruzzar

I was just reading the link on page 2 of this thread that fakesnakes and CPR posted....as far as I can tell it says exactly what your saying...I'm SO f**kn' confused people keep telling me opposite things...im pretty sure not a one of us really knows what the hell is going on AND I think we are all right at the same time...so **** dude...I dont know exactly what to try now.

What do they mean by equal an opposite????? I know equal mean same deg no ? there...but what is opposite well that depends on who you ask:
1) when you ask an observer looking at the car trans points towards earth at 3 deg and rear end points towards sky at 3 deg
2)if you ask the drive shaft well then trans points towards earth at 3 deg and rear end points towards earth at 3 deg...Why? Because if you follow the slope of the line from the yokes to the ds reading left to right one slopes down then the other slopes up.

hummmmm

-Gun

P.S this is still really funny in twisted ****ed up not really so funny at all way :P
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Old 01-13-2009, 10:14 PM   #54
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Forget about the driveshaft and concentrate on the trans and rear end. Properly installed, the tail end of the trans on a mustang is usually pointing down (typically about 3.5 degrees) and the pinion yoke (the part of the rear end that attaches to the drive shaft) is pointing up at 3.5 degrees. If they are both pointing down this will cause a vibration.

FYI. Most driveshaft companies will suggest that the total angle (in this example 3.5 and 3.5 degrees which equale 7 degrees) not be more than 8 degrees. For another example, you could have your trans down a 2 degrees and the rear end up at 2 degrees and you would have a total angle of 4 degrees.

If your car has the trans down and the rear end down I would strongly say that this is the cause of your vibrations.
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Old 01-13-2009, 10:22 PM   #55
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Consider your input welcomed and well noted...and further suspending my actions possibly saving me lots of time and a few bucks...and of course causing me to look for more opinions.


*Edit* this thing used to work fine before and I know I didn't throw it 6 deg off....So is it totally possible that a -2.75 and a -3 deg angle would work just fine as well? I never touched the rear end during all this. Does anyone actually have a mustang with the trans down and the pinion up? Is this really how the came from the factory?


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Old 01-14-2009, 04:19 AM   #56
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hiya. i';m on the same page here. gearbox pointing down and transmission pointing down is a nightmare for the U-joints. but i can't believe that yours pinion is actually pointing down. did you re-check that yourself again (just the matter of up and down).
When I got my rearend the welder made a huge mistake and when it was sitting on a table flat on the perches it was 4 degrees down instead of 4 degrees up. welded the wrong way round. I had to cut the perches, turn the axle up by 8 degrees and that improved the vibration by FAR but still some is there.
what i am quite positive about is that if the gearbox is pointing down and the pinion is pointing down then a 1deg shim will do nothing to help.
BUT the other way around. if the

DS angle is 0
Trans angle is -2.75 (down)
diff angle is -4.0 (maybe maybe up????)
Difference is 1.25 (then this is correct) means your 1degree might work wonder.

But on the contrary i heard quite often that people lower the pinion by 2 degrees for hard launches so it rotates up on accelleration giving the perfect angle. But i never heard of someone complaining about vibration on deccelleration.

when my angle was wrong by 8 degrees (just as in yours trans down and pinion down) I had a nightmare of a vibration so I couldn't even drive the car without being scared to ****. maybe that is really the case.

If I were you the first thing I'd check is if the pinion is actually poining down or up when standing solid on the ground. if down: that is definetly a huge vibration. in mine that even vibrated mad when driving 10mph and slowing to a stop.
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Old 01-14-2009, 04:26 AM   #57
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addition to that thought
as you mentioned the calculator. You say
========================
Computer calculations using my DS lengths and diameter and pinion angle showed that Driveline torsional were out of limit starting at 4000 rpm (DS rpm)...

--->In reality the vibration is very noticeable at 4200 rpm
========================
is that 4200 DS rpm in 4th gear (which is equal engine rpm) or is it in 5th (4200 engine in T5 5th gear is about 6200rpm driveshaft calculating a 0.68:1 ratio in 5th gear (i think thats T5 spec)

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Old 01-14-2009, 04:42 AM   #58
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Mark (fakesnakes): as towards the Ujoints
1-1/16 and 1-18 is 1310 U-joint the other one is big block application (not sure if 1330 or 1350 style).
As their driveshafts already come with U-joints they don't care about the driveshaft side size of the rear u-jojnt. so the correct options are just as they list.
There actually is indeed a 1" u-joint in the 6cylinder stangs (at least there was in mine). The thing is so tiny (short just over 2" instead of over 3" overall lenght) it looks lie a toy. dennys don't seem to care for this application and the reason is obvious.
Wehn Gun mentioned 1" i thought tey were discussing the driveshaft side of the rear U-joint. which in my case is 1" cap diameter. as Gun has the same shaft I guess it's the same for him.

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Old 01-14-2009, 12:39 PM   #59
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I found this that may help shed some light. It did for me.

According to Currie, the average car crafter should strive for between 1 and 3 degrees between the tailshaft of the transmission and driveshaft, and 1 to 3 degrees between the driveshaft and pinion. Furthermore, the two angles should be nearly equal (between 1 and 3 degrees), but always opposite (see crude diagram).

Here is the link.
http://www.carcraft.com/howto/91758/index.html

Edit (corrected up and down...man this is confusing)
The angle is between the DS and the Pinion/DS and the Tranny. If the DS is parallel to the ground, the tranny will point up and the pinion will point down. The angle of the two relative to the driveshaft should be the same. So if the DS is parallel to the ground, then the tranny should be pointing up 1-3* and the Pinion should be pointing down 1-3* but the two should be equal if possible. This is a little unusual to think about because your drive shaft is actually parallel to the ground, which is not the case in many setups.

According to that, you should probably reduce your pinion to DS angle by a degree to be closer to the tranny angle which would mean moving it down so it is closer to parallel.

Take this with a grain of salt b/c I am learning too and will soon be checking my stuff.

Edit...I am pretty sure we set the pinion angle at -3* because of the launching twisting that goes on.
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Old 01-14-2009, 05:17 PM   #60
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Default A little more driveline angle info...

Always remember to take your angles based on imaginary straight lines through the center of the output shaft, the center of the driveshaft, and the center of the rear pinion yoke. Generally speaking the acceptable range is 1.5-4 degrees equal and opposite at each end of the driveline. A zero angle on the u-joint is actually harder on them than an over large angle. Anything between zero and 1 degree will bind the u-joint bearings and cause a lot of vibration and premature wear. Also, check your slip yoke engagement (for those who have a slip yoke). Sometimes the yoke is not into the tailshaft deep enough, which also can cause vibration. If you have upgraded your driveshaft or changed transmissions, check the splines inside the yoke. Some yokes have splines that do not start at the end, but rather start 1/2" to 1" up inside the tube. I have seen a lot of guys use C6 yokes on TKOs and have terrible issues because the yoke is crammed up inside the transmission far enough, but the splines do not go all the way to the end of the tube. Just a few tips. AP
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Old 01-14-2009, 05:17 PM
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