THUMPIN455

If I had a passport I would suggest just getting me a plane ticket. Havent been across the pond in a while. I could have it running great in a couple hours, pretty sure anyway, unless it has bent valves or slipped something somewhere. Havent been in a proper Irish pub in a LOOOOOOOOONG time as well... so there would be the incentive for sure.

kalli

a few clarifications:
a) i confirmed TDC before (about half year ago) with a piston stop I once bought for my engine. don't know any better way. told him might have slipped, so re-check. he claims it's still right
b) the car ran crap before I asked him to get rid of points. with the new distri it doesn't run at all. But I can't say if that was done correctly so I'll doublecheck everything.
c) a camshaft jumped over so the timing between cam and crank was on my head as well, but occasionally, when he wears his red socks and the weather is right the engine actually drives. he joined me on a 300mile roundtrip and got nearly the same gas mileage as me no problem with the engine at all and then this thing runs like crap and then ok again. very odd
d) he phoned me earlier confirming there's a "4" stamped on the heads, so we're definetly dealing with that high compression version. no idea if 10.7:1 or 11:1, definetly awful high for pump gas I'd believe
e) the idle was always set on the lower end, when the idle was set high the engine would do things like run at 800 then 1500 then 800 then 1500 then 800 and finally die. like running way to lean or fuel problems. but the pressure is ok and the filter is as well.

So from this I'd say my first options are to check on distributor placement, firing order, the valves (if they close fully), and come back with results

any general ideas on how to tame a beast with crap fuel? plenty of octane booster booster worth trying?

in any case thanks for all the ideas lads. I should charge him and distribute the money between you :-) and I'll mention the flight ticket as well.
If he can't get it running by wednesday (will meet him on club meeting) I'll go over to him on thursday. I'll check on the plugs as well to see what they're looking like, what kinda abuse they're getting


Kalli

THUMPIN455

Opening the broken record thing, got any ethanol available in the area? I know they run it in Norway/Sweden but have no idea if its in the isles or not. If it is, just run a gallon or two of at least E85 with each fill up and that should take care of the carbon and driveability problems. If he has it close by then jetting up a couple steps would work pretty well.

Seriously, once you guys try running that stuff in a compression engine, you will absolutely love it.

kalli

ireland is way behind for car enthusiast. but I've read through millions of local car forums in Ireland and UK. It seems a petrol station has plans of getting in E5 (not E85), which is supposed to replace all unleaded fuel at Maxol.
I just now checked maxols website and there's about 30 in the country selling E85. One of them quite close to my work.
I never read up about it. That somethign I can pour in straight, or does car need modifications?

THUMPIN455

Just some info for you, I can get you more or answer questions you have about it too. Think of it as race fuel you can get cheaper than gas in most places. A race fuel that makes more power, allows more timing, and runs much cooler.

Under 50% its more of an octane booster that will also allow the engine to run cooler. You can probably run 20 or 30% with the same jets in the carb now. If you have high compression or a turbo, its inexpensive race fuel. To run E85 with a carb takes some dedicated carb modifications that would make it run too rich on gasoline. They are easily done, but because ethanol carries a high % of oxygen it requires less air to be ingested in the engine to make the same power as gasoline. Since the intake tract and fuel system is designed with gasoline in mind, we need to add fuel because of the added air allowed in the engine, the result is increased power. With a high compression engine, over 12:1, you can get better mileage with ethanol than you can with gasoline. With an EFI engine and a few changes to heat the fuel you can achieve greater mileage and power on low compression engines as well.

The octane can be rated from 100 to 119 depending on the method used, but higher percentages will run cooler than lower percentages. Ethanol has a high latent heat of vaporization, meaning it pulls heat from the intake charge as it vaporizes, that is enough to limit knock by cooling alone, but then it is also more resistant to pre ignition. Under boost it is significant enough to create a frost on the blower case/intake on a 90F summer day in the midwest while providing more power.

Ethanol leaves no carbon deposits, and it will clean your entire fuel system of the varnish left by gasoline, so its best to run a low percentage for a while until that is all gone. If you switch directly to E85 or E100 you can clog the fuel filter, injectors, or carb with all the gunk that is left over from gasoline sitting in the tank. Something to be aware of but not a huge problem. It will also clean the valves, pistons, cylinders, and combustion chambers of carbon deposits.

When we burn gasoline it leaves carbon in gritty deposits that accelerate wear inside the engine. If you have ever pulled apart an older engine that was run at low rpm most its life, it is caked with black crud left by the hydrocarbons in gasoline. For the last 20+ years Brazil has been running both ethanol blends and straight ethanol with up to 10% water in it (referred to as hydrous ethanol). The cars running very high ethanol blends and straight ethanol typically last much longer, often with no appreciable wear after 500,000 miles, they look like brand new engines when torn down.

Some say there is a problem with fuel systems and ethanol in older cars. If you have a leather fuel pump diaphragm or certain rubber parts from before 1983, then it can be a problem. Modern carbs and fuel system parts are compatible with ethanol, and there is little difference between running 100% ethanol and 10% ethanol in regards to the fuel system. I have a 70 GTO running E85 with a factory 1973 Qjet car I modified, the stock accelerator pump didnt like it, but the replacement from the rebuild kit works perfectly. Its been in the car two years and no corrosion has been observed anywhere in the fuel system. My 67 Cougar is going to run on E85 and E100, the E100 I am making here in the shop, and it is getting a modified Holley 750, it will probably never run gasoline again.

There are plenty of myths surrounding ethanol, mostly perpetuated by people who have no experience with the fuel. They assume it is just like methanol with the corrosion, toxicity, and special requirements. Its the same stuff that is in beer or whiskey that gets you drunk, that is why it is denatured so you cant drink it. The fact of the matter is it is good for you car, makes more power, and emits vastly lower emissions.

If you are interested in more, I'll write more. And if you want to try it out we can help you with it. I've been a gearhead for 30 years, I am not an environmentalist, hippie, nor a tree hugger, Im a car guy who loves making power on a small budget.

urban_cowboy

Something else that should be verified is that the cam timing is correct. If the cam was installed wrong or has a bunch of slack in the chain or possible jumped teeth, you can have hell getting it to run. Put it at TDC and check to see that both valves are closed. That will verify it is not way off, but a degree wheel is the only sure fire way to test this. Something to think about if all else fails.

As for dieseling, I have that issue from time to time. It happens to me when I open the primary throttle blades too much when trying to set the idle. That is why I had to open the secondary throttle blades some so the primaries did not have to be so open. I think it has something to do with atomization of the fuel at idle and could be caused by some carbon embers during idle. Carbon build up will act like a glow plug and light the fuel when you turn the engine off. If the car is a standard, you can put a little load on the engine by partially letting off the clutch when you turn the ignition off to help keep the dieseling down.

kalli

holy crap ... that sounds like some magic alright. the only thing I know about ethanol is as you say that's the stuff that get's me drunk. Methanol makes you blind.
there's a lots of information in your post and there's plenty I can confirm (low rpm forever engines look like someone threw tar into the oil). What is new to me is what urban says as well: carbon buildup can cause dieseling. The fella told me he had once a bad problem and he changed sparkers and it was good again. another time I remember he only got petrol 50 miles back before it started.
I believe the current problem (nbot starting) is something plain stupid.
But it's all coming together. high compression, carbon buildup, bad gas ... etc that seems to be what's causing his problems so irregularly.
As said the camshaft out of timing or valves sticking open was something I suggested to him quite often already, but I'm always proven wrong when a few weeks later the car drives perfectly normal ... so it can't be anything mechanical (at least nothing I could point it down to).

Thumpin, i'd like to thank you for your extensive writeup about this. It sounds so great that if I had my car today at work I'd actually drive over to that petrol station to add 10% to my fuel tank and see what it does.

As soon as I get his car started I'll definetly add a canister full of that stuff to his petrol. Maybe in a longer term it'll clean up the crap in his engine and he'll be a happy camper with this. It sounds like a wayyyyy better idea than octane booster.

I shouldn't have any problems with my current setup (rubber, ect) as I don't have a single part in the system that's older than 2 years. the carb from mystang being the oldest probably. His did restore his car about 2 years ago, did all the fuel lines and the only thing i'd worry about would be the pump.

Anyways, thanks a million. I'm quite sure I'll keep asking. But at least now I have a solid plan on how to proceed with his banger

THUMPIN455

If you dont have 10% in your fuel already and the tank wasnt replaced when you rebuilt the car and did the fuel system upgrades, make sure there is a filter ahead of the carb. If it has an electric fuel pump, it should have one ahead of it too regardless of fuel type. Run a gallon or so with each fill for three or four tanks and see how it does, quite often the filter will get plugged, so be sure to check that. If the tank is all new then its doubtful there has been any varnish buildup in it.

There is plenty more info available, just ask.

One other thing to check is the bushings in the distributor, make sure the shaft isnt worn and the end play isnt way out of spec. Both of those can cause an intermittent problem. I too think not starting now is something simple and easy to fix.

kalli

cheers mate. i didn't trust the distributor as far as I could throw it. te shaft had no play, but i wasn't entirely sure if the 8 humps for opening the points were up to scratch. the engine is usually getting very hot and the plastic tab that rides on the hump rather look molten than worn. anyway that distributor is now gone. he's still not able to start so i promised to check friday after work.

I told him already about the ideas with the fuel and i get a feeling he agrees that it might be related to the fuel he's using. some gas stations worse, some better. obviously this never happens straight after filling up it would be easy to figure then. I found a corporation that is all over the place here that have E5 as standard for all unleaded. so i told him to go there only, which should be easy to do. i told him we'll add e85 anyway just to give it a try.

with my car the tank was probably never replaced and I have a filter small micron (whatever pump manufacturer suggested) and another one before the carb. For his car I'll ask him to add one of those see throughs before the pump. they're cheap and at least you get a warning with crud in em. i believe he even cleaned the tank out 2 years when he restored the car. but I'll tell him the story with the gallon per tank. I advised him of 10% max. looking forward to see the car on friday, bet you it's something stupid like ran out of gas or so ... :-)

kalli

found the problem. at least something that will not allow him to start .. has me a bit baffled.
he has an intake like this:


just before the primaries theres a "gap?" fropmk left to right exactly like in this picture.
It seems to be heat crossover or something. maybe it warms up a cold intake, don't know.
Anyway that heat/exhaust int this gap is eating up his gasket. he had some rubbery gasket maybe 1/3" on it and that was completely eaten/burned through. the exhaust would push straight into the primaries ... I'll try and upload a picture. it has to be seen to believed

no i'm wondering, can we block it off? maybe drill/tap and screw it closed? that a known issue?
he said he replaced that a few times before, but he probably wasn't fully aware of what this will cause (exhaust->intake)

Kalli