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Vacuum Canisters!!

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Old 12-15-2009, 07:45 PM   #1
1966-FASTBACK
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Default Vacuum Canisters!!

i was looking at some vacuum canisters at Summit racing. do these things work very well? i am doing a engine rebuild with a larger cam and i have power brakes.
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Old 12-16-2009, 04:13 AM   #2
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id go to the junkyard and find a turbo car and pull the pump and vacuum can off of it
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Old 12-16-2009, 04:56 AM   #3
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Or you could just use Rhodes lifters when you install the cam.
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Old 12-16-2009, 07:11 AM   #4
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ive never used the summit one, but i have the moroso vacuum pump on mine and it works great
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Old 12-16-2009, 08:40 AM   #5
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Or you could just use Rhodes lifters when you install the cam.
I used these when I swapped cams a couple years ago (on 2+2GT's recommendation). I absolutely love them. I went with a more aggressive cam during the swap (XE268H to a Magnum 280H), but low end power actually improved. I still only pull maybe 14" of vacuum at 750rpm, but that has to be better than without them, and it goes up quickly if you up the idle to 950.

However...they're noisy, especially if you have headers. The action of the lifters collapsing allows the valves to slam into the seats, creating what sounds almost like solid lifter valve lash once the motor is warmed up. Not quite that loud (it would be less apparent with exhaust manifolds), and it goes away above 3k rpm, but it's something to keep in mind.
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Old 12-16-2009, 09:29 AM   #6
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I used these when I swapped cams a couple years ago (on 2+2GT's recommendation). I absolutely love them. I went with a more aggressive cam during the swap (XE268H to a Magnum 280H), but low end power actually improved. I still only pull maybe 14" of vacuum at 750rpm, but that has to be better than without them, and it goes up quickly if you up the idle to 950.
I first used these lifters in boats, which run very differently than cars, at or near wide-open-throttle, yet you need low idle to be able to get to the dock. I was able to get Crane Fireball cams to idle at 400 rpm.

However...they're noisy, especially if you have headers. The action of the lifters collapsing allows the valves to slam into the seats, creating what sounds almost like solid lifter valve lash once the motor is warmed up. Not quite that loud (it would be less apparent with exhaust manifolds), and it goes away above 3k rpm, but it's something to keep in mind.
Since two of my cars have actual "solid" lifters, with the actual noise they make, I tend to laugh at the folks who complain the Rhodes is noisy. Especially the ones with 2 1/2" exhaust and Flowmasters. Worrying about mechanical noise from the engine was where those stupid nylon cam gears came from.
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Old 12-16-2009, 10:53 AM   #7
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A vacuum canister can't increase the amount of vacuum available for the power brake booster. The only thing it does is store some vacuum which can help, but after a few stops that reserve from the canister is gone. Imagine getting into stop and go traffic and after the first couple stops you then have to use both feet to stop the car. If you have low enough vacuum that the power brakes don't operate right, the real solution is a separate vacuum pump as was suggested earlier. You can either go to a salvage yard, or they are available new and are about $200 if I remember right.
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Old 12-16-2009, 11:14 AM   #8
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A vacuum canister can't increase the amount of vacuum available for the power brake booster. The only thing it does is store some vacuum which can help, but after a few stops that reserve from the canister is gone. Imagine getting into stop and go traffic and after the first couple stops you then have to use both feet to stop the car. If you have low enough vacuum that the power brakes don't operate right, the real solution is a separate vacuum pump as was suggested earlier. You can either go to a salvage yard, or they are available new and are about $200 if I remember right.
Well, you are assuming the engine is not running between these lights- When I approach a traffic light, I let off the gas, which pops the engine up to it's maximum vacuum, instantly regenerating vacuum available.

Or you could just build an engine that will operate the brakes properly.
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Old 12-16-2009, 11:50 AM   #9
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Well, you are assuming the engine is not running between these lights- When I approach a traffic light, I let off the gas, which pops the engine up to it's maximum vacuum, instantly regenerating vacuum available.

Or you could just build an engine that will operate the brakes properly.
No, I am not assuming the engine is not running. Even if the engine is running, if it is not capable of supplying enough vacuum at idle for the brakes without the canister, then the canister is only a buffer that will get you maybe an additional stop or 2 before the vacuum is too low for the booster. Yes blipping the throttle will build vacuum, but it is the bush league way to do it in my book.

You are assuming stop and go traffic is light to light, but to me stop and go is roll forward 10 feet stop, roll forward 10 feet stop, roll forward 10 feet stop........ No chance to slap the throttle plate closed unless you have a stick shift or you want to constantly shift your automatic into neutral. Also, while slapping the throttle plate closed does as you say, this is not good enough in my book as brakes are WAYYYY more important than anything else on the car. I want mine to work the way they are supposed to just by pushing the brake pedal. No tricks, no blipping the throttle, or anything like that just to keep the vacuum high enough. If it means a milder cam, or a vacuum pump, then that's the way it is.
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Old 12-16-2009, 01:34 PM   #10
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You are assuming stop and go traffic is light to light, but to me stop and go is roll forward 10 feet stop, roll forward 10 feet stop, roll forward 10 feet stop........ No chance to slap the throttle plate closed unless you have a stick shift or you want to constantly shift your automatic into neutral. Also, while slapping the throttle plate closed does as you say, this is not good enough in my book as brakes are WAYYYY more important than anything else on the car. I want mine to work the way they are supposed to just by pushing the brake pedal. No tricks, no blipping the throttle, or anything like that just to keep the vacuum high enough. If it means a milder cam, or a vacuum pump, then that's the way it is.
Gothcha, that's not really "stop and go", that's just "stop". If your idle vacuum is inadequate, something's got to give. The Rhodes lifters will bring the vacuum up 2-4", and give you a wider power band to boot. Or you could ditch the booster and go with the MICO master cylinder, the downside is it's a single cylinder, the upside is the pedal effort is almost as low as a stock booster. Shelby used them on the GT350H so rental customers wouldn't have high pedal effort, and they avoided using a booster to do it.

I'm not a big fan of vacuum generators, always seems like just one more thing to have brake problems with. My Mustang doesn't have power boost, either. Just power.
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Old 12-16-2009, 03:20 PM   #11
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Gothcha, that's not really "stop and go", that's just "stop". If your idle vacuum is inadequate, something's got to give. The Rhodes lifters will bring the vacuum up 2-4", and give you a wider power band to boot. Or you could ditch the booster and go with the MICO master cylinder, the downside is it's a single cylinder, the upside is the pedal effort is almost as low as a stock booster. Shelby used them on the GT350H so rental customers wouldn't have high pedal effort, and they avoided using a booster to do it.

I'm not a big fan of vacuum generators, always seems like just one more thing to have brake problems with. My Mustang doesn't have power boost, either. Just power.
Yep. The Rhodes lifters do work. I had them on a 1970 Monte Carlo many moons ago. If the idle vacuum is marginal, the Rhodes lifters may tip the scale to where you don't even need anything else.

I also agree that the vacuum pumps are another thing that can go wrong, but they have been made very reliable with the turbo cars running around these days. Reliable enough now that I wouldn't be too concerned about it anymore.

Two other options not mentioned are the hyrda-boost systems, which run off of your power steering pump pressure, and the manual brake option. Converting to hydra-boost could involve adapting an OEM design, but there are aftermarket versions. Not sure how much they cost though. Could be pricey.

Going to manual brakes is a possibility too. This can be a simple as installing a manual master cylinder that is compatible with the brakes at the hubs, or again the aftermarket has many complete systems with manual option.

Bottom line is that there are many options available, but I wouldn't get my hopes up for a canister alone to make up for low vacuum from the engine. Been there and although they do help a little I would recommend a different course myself.
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Old 12-16-2009, 09:21 PM   #12
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I would say build the car first and see how things work. You may be wasting your money. I have driven many a power boosted car with a super luppy cam and the brakes worked fine.
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Old 12-17-2009, 02:50 PM   #13
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Since two of my cars have actual "solid" lifters, with the actual noise they make, I tend to laugh at the folks who complain the Rhodes is noisy. Especially the ones with 2 1/2" exhaust and Flowmasters. Worrying about mechanical noise from the engine was where those stupid nylon cam gears came from.
Well, I like to give the disclaimer They're definitely audible, and it could bother some people that aren't used to a bunch of clatter under the hood. It really doesn't bother me, but I've had lots of people ask me if I run solid lifters.

Although, the last guy I warned about the added noise listened to my car when he was in town and commented that it wasn't half as bad as he was expecting. *shrug*
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Old 12-17-2009, 02:50 PM
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