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Mini-starter wiring recommendations

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Old 02-17-2010, 12:36 AM   #1
lefty3382
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Default Mini-starter wiring recommendations

So I just purchased a Powermaster hi torque mini-starter as the final push to completely replace my ignition and charging system with high quality aftermarket parts. I'm trying to install the new starter and realize that I now have 2 starter solenoids to deal with, since the new starter has its own solenoid attached where the stock replacement did not. In my research I've come across several different possibilities for how to wire it up, and would like to get some opinions from those who've been here. What have you done?

The first is attaching the switch wire to the S terminal on the fender solenoid, this way uses both solenoids. All else remains the same.

The second is moving the main starter wire to the battery side of the fender solenoid and hooking the switch wire to the right side. Before and after:
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The third is installing a Bosch type relay in this circuit:
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Old 02-17-2010, 02:16 AM   #2
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I did the second move. Moved my big thick starter cable to the positive side battery on solenoid and then moved the tiny one they supply to the starter side of solenoid.
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Old 02-17-2010, 06:55 AM   #3
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NBA is correct, I did it that way as they show you. I had problems with mine tho... I'm on my third one, first one kept spinning on my flywheel, second had a short snout and didn't reach the flywheel and the third is sitting on the passenger floor. Good luck
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Old 02-17-2010, 07:55 AM   #4
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Remember that the large wire leading from the battery to the starter is meant to carry several hundred amps. If you use a post on the old solenoid as a 'distribution point', you are introducing a lot of resistance into that circuit. This will reduce the amount of amps you can send to the starter and heat up that wire considerably.

Your best bet (and cleanest) is to do away with the stock solenoid as far as the starting circuit is concerned. Using the stock solenoid as a 'take off' point for the rest of the car is not big deal. Run a new wire from the battery to the new solenoid. Take a look at your engine block to frame ground. Ground your battery to the engine mount bolt. These simple steps will ensure you have a good stout circuit path for all those amps the starter requires.

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Old 02-17-2010, 09:45 AM   #5
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I run the second way. It's worked fine for 5 years or so.
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Old 02-17-2010, 01:48 PM   #6
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After re-reading the instructions I noticed a couple things. Under common questions it states:

"Can I use a remote solenoid? Yes. Connect the battery cable from the remote solenoid to the starter in the normal way. connect the starter's solenoid switch terminal to the remote solenoid's switch terminal."

This would seem to be an endorsement for the first option.

Also, wouldn't the second option as Starfury does be the same as leaving the battery wire AND putting the switch wire on the right side of the fender solenoid? Essentially the first option, but placing the switch wire on the ride side as well instead of the S terminal. That way both the switch and battery terminals would be activated with the ignition in the start position, but no other time. The benefit being the battery cable isn't hot all the time, although would that send too much juice through the switch wire?

And the instructions talk about "the ground cable to the frame should be the same size as the starter cable." They're not referring to the ground strap from frame to motor. What ground cable are they talking about? Should I have a large negative cable from starter to frame? If so, where?
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Old 02-17-2010, 03:16 PM   #7
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I think your kind of looking into this too much..... The starter requires significantly less cranking amps and should fire up your car much faster. What's wrong with wiring it the way you know it works?

Unless of course your battery is in the trunk that might be a different story
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Old 02-17-2010, 03:30 PM   #8
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I appreciate your concern, but I prefer to be as thorough as possible. I'm not just trying to figure out the easiest method and be done with it, I'm trying to learn as much as possible not just for this installation but for future projects and just knowledge in general. Electrical is my worst subject, as it is for many. I'm interested in learning rules of thumb, best practices, preferences of those more experienced in this area, and basically learning anything I don't already know.

I've already decided what configuration I'm going to try first, but I'm interested in any ideas or thoughts that haven't already been stated.
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Old 02-17-2010, 04:58 PM   #9
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I ran it like option 1 and just put a jumper wire from the large wire on the starter to the terminal on the starter solenoid. It's a 95 factory high torque mini starter. Been on there for years with 0 issue.
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Old 02-17-2010, 08:19 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 67mustang302 View Post
I ran it like option 1 and just put a jumper wire from the large wire on the starter to the terminal on the starter solenoid. It's a 95 factory high torque mini starter. Been on there for years with 0 issue.
Does your start hang at all ? I've seen them done like that a few times and I can always tell what it is without looking under the hood. Just sounds like the guy is on the key too long.
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Old 02-17-2010, 08:55 PM   #11
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Not really, no. You can hear the starter spin for a bit after you let off of "start" on account of the starter gear pulling back. But that could just be that it's a high torque starter so it still has some inertia left in it. I imagine it may depend on the individual starter design as well. Basically as soon as you come off "start" the starter immediately disengages and decels to a stop.

I've had 0 issues with it for years and had it off several times, and there are no signs of abnormal wear on either the starter gear or the flywheel ring gear.
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Old 02-17-2010, 10:58 PM   #12
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Not meaning to offend,,,,,,,,,,,, but, IMO, (and experience) high torque starter (gear reduction starters) are pretty much a waste of money at best, and CRAP at worst. I don't like em.

The stock style we put on Jim's 11 to 1 CR 408 turns the engine just fine, is super reliable, super simple, and only cost about $30.00. This means that about 6 stock style starters can be bought for the price of one high torque starter.

Also, I keep looking at these "two solenoid solutions" thinking that often times just one solenoid can be a pain in the a$$, let alone two in a row one feeding off the other.....

The only way I will consider one of these is if space requirements dictate it's use.
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Old 02-17-2010, 11:39 PM   #13
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The high torque I'm running is the stock starter for late model 5.0 Mustangs...from the Cobras I think. It's a mini starter as well, so it takes up WAAAYYY less space than the factory beast, which was the main reason I got it. And a high torque is beneficial for a few reasons, first in areas of extreme heat or cold that make it harder to start cars(low cranking amps, a starter that tries to drag in the heat etc) they work a lot better, and secondly because the motor doesn't have to work as hard to start the engine, it lasts a lot longer.

They're not necessary, and are expensive, but they do have their uses....and they weigh a lot less. As far as I'm concerned the smaller size and weight is reason enough, removing and installing the starter and the clearance around headers is all the reason I need. I just got tired of dealing with the stock old monster units, especially since they didn't seem to last long in the climate around here.
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Old 02-18-2010, 01:54 AM   #14
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JMD you are a crack up. I don't think I've ever seen you endorse a high performance part over stock replacement. I can't tell if you're just hardcore old school, or have just had really bad luck with aftermarket parts. Either way, I'm glad I can count on you to play devil's advocate in these hipo parts threads.
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Old 02-18-2010, 02:03 AM   #15
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my 55 dollar dbelectrical mini starter works great

Much easier to install with long tube headers and fixes heat soak issues

For about the same price as the monster why not. Unless your concours no reason not to go with a mini
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Old 02-18-2010, 04:50 AM   #16
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I have a starter like a 5.0 Mustang and it is wired so that the factory solenoid engages it. It works fine.
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Old 02-18-2010, 07:56 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lefty3382 View Post
And the instructions talk about "the ground cable to the frame should be the same size as the starter cable." They're not referring to the ground strap from frame to motor. What ground cable are they talking about? Should I have a large negative cable from starter to frame? If so, where?
The cable they are referring to is the negative cable on the battery. Remember, the juice coming out of the positive terminal must RETURN to the battery through the negative terminal. Most people have problems with grounds because they are focused on the 'dangerous' positive side.

Your starter is grounded to the block via the physical contact it makes with the block. You do not ground it with a cable. That is why I mentioned in my earlier post that you need to run the negative battery cable to the motor mount bolt (or any large bolt that screws into the block). This gives your current path the most unobstructed way possible and therefore, the most amps with the least resistance. The grounding strap from the block to the frame is really for all of your other electrical devices that are grounded to the body/frame.

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Old 02-19-2010, 09:27 PM   #18
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Quote:
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JMD you are a crack up. I don't think I've ever seen you endorse a high performance part over stock replacement. I can't tell if you're just hardcore old school, or have just had really bad luck with aftermarket parts. Either way, I'm glad I can count on you to play devil's advocate in these hipo parts threads.


Ok, here is my take on aftermarket parts, I really dig the aftermarket, most of it anyway.

I LOVE aftermarket heads, Air Gap Manifolds, 5 speed trannys, headers, etc. I like stuff that WORKS WELL enough to drive EVERYDAY.

The reason I like stock starters is that they are typically really, really, reliable.

That said, 67 Mustang 302's starter is probably one I would use, but I AM NOT impressed with the "PowerCrapper" and the like.

We put one on my son's very warm 350, the sprag took a dump after a couple of months, and a trip to the parts store netted a TOYOTA starter that I managed to pull enough parts out of to make the Powermaster work, yep, that $200+ starter was made mostly of a Toyota starter available at the parts store for $30.

Another issue I have with these starters is that when they start engaging the ring gear wrong they can eat the ring gear RIGHT NOW.

Has anyone ever noticed that those old stock FORD starters (the ones with no solenoid on the starter) seldom if EVER misfire on the ring gear (so long as we wait for the starter to stop spinning) like GM starters so OFTEN do? So with this in mind, what do us FORD FOLKS do? we TAKE OFF our better starter and PUT on a "GM LIKE" starter with a troublesome solenoid on top of it..... (MY WIFE could change a FORD solenoid..... )

There are some things I don't really like, mini starters (in general) is one, 3" exhaust is another. IMO some of the highly marketed "bolt on stuff" is just crap.

I like good brakes and steering, I would recommend my son's R&P steering, aftermarket motor mounts, and Wilwood brakes in an instant.

I put a trick Edelbrock fuel injection setup, a sweet March pulley setup, and disk brakes all around on my coupe.

Anyone who knows me knows that I am a LITTLE opinionated....
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Old 02-19-2010, 09:55 PM   #19
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A lot of aftermarket stuff is overly priced crap.

Factory parts are generally really reliable as well.
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Old 02-19-2010, 10:02 PM   #20
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this will solve all your after run problems!!
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Old 02-19-2010, 10:02 PM
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