Go Back   MustangForums.com > Ford Mustang Tech > Classic Mustangs (Tech)
Sign in using an external account
Register Forgot Password?
Search


Classic Mustangs (Tech) Technical discussions about the Mustangs of yester-year.

Welcome to Mustang Forums!
Welcome to Mustang Forums.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, at no cost, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!


aluminum 351C heads

Reply
 
 
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 04-26-2010, 04:26 AM   #1
sethalot
2nd Gear Member
 
sethalot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location:
Posts: 228
Exclamation aluminum 351C heads

ok so im seriously thinking of tearing down the starion and turning it into a street/strip car, though it would be more strip than street so im not to worried about street manners. I've decided it will either be a 302-331cid, 351W, or a 351C. Right at the moment though im thinking 351C does anyone know of any good aluminum heads besides the edelbrock ones?
or would you recommend sticking with the iron heads. I would want 450-500rwhp and the engine would be backed with a 5spd trans.

edelbrock performer rpm _________________Stock 2V
Quench chamber 60cc __________________open chamber 76.6-70.9cc
int. runner 190cc exh. runner 75cc________small port
int. valve dia 2.05 exh. 1.60 _____________int. valve dia 2.05 exh. 1.659



Stock 4V _______________________________Stock Boss 351
Quench chamber 61.3-64.3cc______________Quench chamber 64.6-67.3cc
large port _______________________________large port
int valve dia 2.198 exh. 1.715_______________int. valve dia 2.198 exh. 1.715
This ad is not displayed to registered or logged-in members.
Register your free account today and become a member on Mustang Forums!
sethalot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2010, 11:34 AM   #2
71Mach14spd
2nd Gear Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Vehicle: 1971 Ford Mustang
Location: California
Posts: 234
Default

I would stick with the cast iron heads, those back in the today were designed to be basically what aluminum heads are today. I left them on my clevo and im making 500 hp to the flywheel. Just a waste of money to put aluminum heads on but that's just my opinion.
__________________
1971 Mach 1 351c CJ 4 speed toploader close ratio
71Mach14spd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2010, 02:42 PM   #3
67mustang302
6th Gear Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Vehicle: 67 Mustang Coupe
Location: California
Posts: 10,415
Default

CHI heads blow most other heads out of the water, whether they go on a W or a C. If you have an engine that makes 500hp on the iron heads a direct swap to CHI 3V heads(their own hybrid design) Would yield 600+hp. But they're not cheap. They're an extremely good cylinder head, and if you go aluminum I'd skip right past the Eddy head and get the CHI. Barring that, if you're made of money, have a money tree, or someone is about to die an leave you tons of money, you can get the Brodix Neal BF series heads which are one of the best heads on the planet period....but did I mention they're expensive?
__________________
Who cares how much horsepower it has, all that matters is how fast it goes!

Untested 331, lots of suspension, chewing up corners.
67mustang302 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2010, 04:02 PM   #4
urban_cowboy
5th Gear Member
 
urban_cowboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Vehicle: '69 Mustang Mach1
Location: Texas Hill Country
Posts: 2,100
Default

+1 CHI. CHI heads, intakes, and a Cleveland based motor won the Engine Builders Challenge last year in a Kasse motor (677hp/597ft*lbs). They are pricey, but kick some ars, especially if you plan to race it.
__________________

"Yeah, were runnin a little bit hot tonight. I can barely see the road from the heat comin' off of it." Van Halen
12.20sec 1/4mi @ 115.50mph
http://www.hardtohandleracing.com
urban_cowboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2010, 09:07 PM   #5
sethalot
2nd Gear Member
 
sethalot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location:
Posts: 228
Default

O.O wow while the CHI heads look like the way to go the price is pretty steep, does anyone know of any place that makes a reproduction 351 boss style head in aluminum? mostly im pushing the aluminum over the cast iron in an attempt to keep the weight down. im shooting for the car to weigh roughly 2500-2700lbs stripped down with me in it. i appreciate the info, maybe i just wont buy the rifle i want and spring for the CHI heads
sethalot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2010, 12:15 AM   #6
67mustang302
6th Gear Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Vehicle: 67 Mustang Coupe
Location: California
Posts: 10,415
Default

Good luck getting that kind of weight with an iron block and metal body panels. And good heads cost money, you get what you pay for.
__________________
Who cares how much horsepower it has, all that matters is how fast it goes!

Untested 331, lots of suspension, chewing up corners.
67mustang302 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2010, 12:25 AM   #7
andrewmp6
6th Gear Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location:
Posts: 8,162
Default

Have you looked at http://www.ausfordparts.com/
andrewmp6 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2010, 12:26 AM   #8
sethalot
2nd Gear Member
 
sethalot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location:
Posts: 228
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 67mustang302 View Post
Good luck getting that kind of weight with an iron block and metal body panels. And good heads cost money, you get what you pay for.
car weighs in at just over 3000lbs shedding 300lbs worth of carpet, sound deadening material and interior, and opting for fiberglass hood, front fenders, and hatch, 2700 doesn't sound unreasonable to me. and yes you get what you pay for but im not sure if spending $2600 on a set of heads is worth it to me.

thanks for the link andrew

Last edited by sethalot; 04-27-2010 at 12:29 AM.
sethalot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2010, 12:39 AM   #9
67mustang302
6th Gear Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Vehicle: 67 Mustang Coupe
Location: California
Posts: 10,415
Default

According to what? Have you actually weighed it? A 69 with a 351C is going to have a really hard time only being 3,000lbs. More like 3,200lbs. Aluminum heads save around 40lbs, a fiberglass hood will save about 20 lbs, and fiberglass fenders together will save 10-20lbs, and the apron about 5-10lbs. Do you really think your car has another 200lbs worth of carpet and insulation? And that's just to get to 2,700lbs AND assuming you actually start at 3,000lbs. Cars with fuel and drivers are heavier than most people think, 3,000lbs curb weight is LIGHT for a car, a modern Ferrari F430 is 3,100lbs, and that's with lightweight exotic steel alloys, aluminum almost everything, and some carbon fiber parts.

Reducing weight just over the front end has a big impact on handling, so that's certainly a good goal to shoot for, but don't waste a lot of time and money trying to get the weight down that low, unless it's a full race car and you can just pull everything out of it...wiring, seats, interior panels etc.

And as far as the heads being worth it, if you have the cash, the money spent on CHI heads will produce FAR more performance than money spent trying to save a few hundred pounds of weight.
__________________
Who cares how much horsepower it has, all that matters is how fast it goes!

Untested 331, lots of suspension, chewing up corners.
67mustang302 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2010, 01:23 AM   #10
sethalot
2nd Gear Member
 
sethalot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location:
Posts: 228
Default

the car is a 1987 starion.... sorry if you misunderstood this engine wouldnt be going into my 69'
sethalot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2010, 01:43 AM   #11
andrewmp6
6th Gear Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location:
Posts: 8,162
Default

Good luck keeping the irs in it together.
andrewmp6 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2010, 08:48 PM   #12
67mustang302
6th Gear Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Vehicle: 67 Mustang Coupe
Location: California
Posts: 10,415
Default

lol, yeah. That kind of power in that car is going to need some serious work to not rip it to pieces. But as far as weight reduction....that swap will make the front end much heavier than stock, so I don't know how much front end weight reduction would make a difference. It's gonna be front heavy big time without some SERIOUS changes. That might be getting into the kind of deal where you try to mount the engine as far back as you can, which may require moving the whole dash and seating arrangement.
__________________
Who cares how much horsepower it has, all that matters is how fast it goes!

Untested 331, lots of suspension, chewing up corners.
67mustang302 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2010, 04:09 AM   #13
sethalot
2nd Gear Member
 
sethalot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location:
Posts: 228
Default

the stock IRS has been proven perfectly capable of handling upwards of 500hp in stock form, and as far as the front end weight is concerned it would be primarily for straight line racing. however this thread was created to ascertain whether or not there are good aluminum heads available for this engine or if stock iron is the way to go, not to debate whether you think this is a good idea. i appreciate the information provided on the CHI heads from you but if you dont have anything else to contribute about 351C cylinder heads please dont post.
sethalot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2010, 08:58 AM   #14
THUMPIN455
5th Gear Member
 
THUMPIN455's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Vehicle: Too many to list, 30+
Location: Marquette Mi
Posts: 3,566
Default

I like the iron heads, cheap and easy to work with. They also make good power provided you cam them so they make power where you want it. I have had 4V engines with plenty of bottom end torque and absolutely silly top end. It doesnt take much to make them run hard. If you have the money then aluminum heads are quite nice, lighter, easy to repair, easy to modify, good port shapes, good chamber shapes, and they are new. The price is just too high on them for me when I can rebuild two or three sets of iron heads for the same price.

Clevelands arent that heavy, they were just in heavy cars. My Cougar still hasnt sagged the springs and the Cleveland has been sitting in it for two years. Yes its heavier than a 302, but not like a FE or a 460, for the power they make they are a light engine.

A Starion, interesting build. I think it will be pretty damn cool.
__________________
POD and Cougar progress pics:
71 Pit of Despair Mustang
67 Cougar

THUMPIN455 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2010, 02:49 PM   #15
67mustang302
6th Gear Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Vehicle: 67 Mustang Coupe
Location: California
Posts: 10,415
Default

500hp at what rpm? Hp doesn't kill parts, torque does, and hp is just an arbitrary number by itself, it's a calculated value of torque at a certain rpm. A 500hp turbo 4 cylinder may not produce the same kind of torque that a 500hp 351C will, one may be fine, the other may break things. It's just something to keep in mind so you don't get everything together and then break something you weren't expecting.

Which gets back to heads....with iron heads you can make good power and in a small car like that it will be fast, but something like CHI heads and you're talking about 600hp easy with a decent build, if you really cam it then you're getting into the 700+hp range with huge amounts of torque, so it's not just spending money on heads, you then have to spend money on other things to get the whole car to work right. Transmission, suspension, chassis strengthening. So there's a lot more money spent then JUST heads....better heads require you to spend money on other better things as well. You're the only one who knows if you have the money to spend on the whole project to do that.

The reason things other than heads are mentioned in a heads thread, is you can't look at vehicle performance in just one area with complete disregard to others. Heads aren't JUST heads, it's how they'll work in an engine that has to work with the rest of the car. Whatever heads you pick have to be picked with regard to how much time/effort/money you're going to spend on the rest of the engine/car.

So your choices are stock iron which will give the least power(but still good power) and the most weight but cost the least. Edelbrock heads which will make better power(but probably not a whole lot more) for less weight but cost more. CHI heads which will make incredible power for low weight, but cost even more and will most likely necessitate spending a bunch of money elsewhere in the suspension and transmission due to the large torque output. And then there's the Brodix Neal heads, which honestly if you have to ask you don't want to mess with....they'll make absolutely insane amounts of power, but are VERY expensive and will require a bunch of modification to both the engine and the rest of the car.

It all boils down to how much money you have and are willing to spend on the whole car.

And while a 351C isn't really heavy, it's heavier than the I4 that car came with, so you also have to give thought to the front suspensions ability to support the additional weight....if you launch on sticky tires at the strip and pull the front end up some, you don't want it slamming back down and hammering the oil pan because the front end is too soft.
__________________
Who cares how much horsepower it has, all that matters is how fast it goes!

Untested 331, lots of suspension, chewing up corners.
67mustang302 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2010, 04:34 PM   #16
sethalot
2nd Gear Member
 
sethalot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location:
Posts: 228
Default

http://www.turbomagazine.com/feature...vette_z06.html

im not to worried about the rear end, and if it does end up breaking i'll replace it with a ford 9in solid rear
as for the front, the suspension isnt going to be left as is. all said and done this would be a complete tear down and rebuild of the car around whatever engine/trans combo i end up putting together.
sethalot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2010, 06:15 PM   #17
Fordication
2nd Gear Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Vehicle: 1972, Ford, Mustang
Location: Houston TX
Posts: 498
Send a message via Yahoo to Fordication
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sethalot View Post
the car is a 1987 starion.... sorry if you misunderstood this engine wouldnt be going into my 69'


Mitsui? Time to light a match and get a real car. Man I really despised that series of 4 banger overated cars.If you want to put an engine in it and save you some money drop a generic LS1 into and save a bundle. That car cannot handle much more than 300 HP anyway. It will break in half at anything over that.
__________________
Ed Walden
-
1954 Ford F-100
312 Y-Block Built for speed/9"Rearend/Aerostar Front IFS
2010 Ford Supercrew
1972 Ford Mustang Grande Coupe
2002 Triumph Trophy 1200
1968 Cougar 302
Fordication is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2010, 09:34 PM   #18
69mach1377
5th Gear Member
 
69mach1377's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Vehicle: 69 Mach1
Location: ABQ, NM, USA
Posts: 2,273
Default

What seems to be lacking in this discussion is the flow numbers for various heads, which corresponds to expected HP, depending on the cam mostly.
The Edelbrok ones don't offer much flow over the ported cast iron C heads...the CHIs do. But there may be others to consider also.
__________________
69Mach1 - warmed up 395W (AFR 185s) and broken POS Gforce T5 with hydraulic clutch, 3.50:1 posi, rack&pinion/tilt, 235/50ZR17x8 front & 285/40ZR18x9 rear, American Racing Nova wheels, all MSD, Holley 750, custom paint, headlight relays, Shelby drop & 2" lower all around, Hotwheels Redline scale is 1 to 1.
http://photobucket.com/albums/v618/danaranda/69stang
69mach1377 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-29-2010, 03:04 AM   #19
67mustang302
6th Gear Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Vehicle: 67 Mustang Coupe
Location: California
Posts: 10,415
Default

There's WAY more to a head making power than flow numbers.
__________________
Who cares how much horsepower it has, all that matters is how fast it goes!

Untested 331, lots of suspension, chewing up corners.
67mustang302 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-29-2010, 04:59 AM   #20
sethalot
2nd Gear Member
 
sethalot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location:
Posts: 228
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fordication View Post
If you want to put an engine in it and save you some money drop a generic LS1 into and save a bundle. That car cannot handle much more than 300 HP anyway. It will break in half at anything over that.
http://www.turbomagazine.com/feature...vette_z06.html

nice car btw 69mach

Last edited by sethalot; 04-29-2010 at 05:01 AM.
sethalot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-29-2010, 04:59 AM
MustangForums
Ford Mustang




Paid Advertisement

 
 
 
Reply

Tags
225, 351c, 3v, 46l, aluminum, audio, boss, cast, chi, clips, edelbrock, heads, iron, performer, rpm, sale, trickflow

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

Forum Jump

Advertising

Featured Sponsors
Vendor Directory
New Sponsors
All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:35 AM.

© Internet Brands, Inc.


This forum is owned and operated by Internet Brands, Inc., a Delaware corporation. It is not authorized or endorsed by the Ford Motor Company and is not affiliated with the Ford Motor Company or its related companies in any way. Ford® is a registered trademark of the Ford Motor Company
Emails Backup