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New Coyote engine in 1971 Mach 1??

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Old 01-19-2011, 01:57 PM   #21
67mustang302
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By driveability, I mean even a 347 making 500 HP is going to have a pretty lumpy cam and high-flow heads, which means less low-end torque, which makes the car less enjoyable to drive around town. I had a Chebby with a built 283 'back in the day' with the Z28 off road cam (.493/.512 lift, 257/269 duration) and that thing was a pain to drive. It made lots of high-end power (shifted at 8K, 5.57 gears, dual quads) but around town I had to downshift all the time to get enough torque to get out of my own way.

As Norm Peterson said, variable cam timing allows the ECM to change the closing and opening points of intake and exhaust valves (indepently) based on the load, RPM, etc. Thus, with the 5.0 motor, you get the advantage of a long duration cam (at high RPM) and the streetability of a stock cam for good low-end torque, smooth idle, fuel economy, and emissions. With a SBF you have a cam that is designed for torque or high-RPM power, or a compromise between the two. With ViCT, you have all the above (which is precisely why they can get 412 net HP and 390 lb torque [120 lb more than the 93 Cobra 5.0] and still get 26 MPG in a car that weighs about 600 lbs more than our old Mustangs).
Again, ignorance(no offense, it's just a lack of knowledge). Have you ever driven an honest 500hp 347? Talk to someone who has, usually their bottom end torque problem is way too much. I'm sure your small engine "back in the day" drove like crap, but that's because everything "back in the day" drove like crap....it was a lack of technology and understanding in engine design. They lacked power because they were built wrong(engineers hadn't figured out what they were doing).

Case in point take the 302(307) in my car. Based on weight and the mph in my sig in the given weather, calculate what the approximate power is. Comes out to around 380hp at the crank given reasonable drivetrain loss(going through a beefy transmission). That's out of a 302 with a long rod setup, which is an engine that doesn't necessarily favor low end power(the newer Coyote 5.0 runs a smaller bore with a longer stroke to help with that via stroke length to produce torque more easily). It now has a custom cam in it and makes more power and drives even better(peak power is prolly ~390-400 at 6k with broader power between 3-6.5k, maybe more but who cares).

I leave stops and am out of the clutch completely by ~1,300rpm on barely off idle throttle position(less than 10% I'm sure). And keep in mind that my 1st gear is the equivalent of a 2011's 2nd gear due to trans/rear gearing differences. If I leave a stop at 2k rpm and 1/4 throttle I'll blow the tires off the entire way across the intersection. Low rpm power and drivability is not a concern, and it has excellent street manners....even with a carb that has been giving me tuning fits and having AFR's that are off all over the place. In terms of power/weight ratio it's on par with the new 2011's, though due to suspension and gearing I'd expect a 2011 to launch better and run faster 1/4mi times. Gets around 25mpg on the highway, without even being tuned right.

In other words I've accomplished the same thing with a pushrod 5.0 that I could have with a new Coyote engine....but I didn't have to chop the front of the car up, convert the entire front suspension and install an entirely different fuel system and transmission. And that's just on a short stroke 302, not even a longer stroke 347(which make insane torque everywhere due to the stroke length vs port design of SBF's). Just because the engine design is older, doesn't mean you can't build it on a modern philosophy, and save a ton of money doing it.

The point I'm trying to stress is there is a ton of misinformation flying around these days, and it's imply untrue. Everyone bases how a pushrod engine or "older" engine will perform on how they performed 40 years ago. Sure, it's true if you build it like they were built 40 years ago with crap heads and crap cams and crap everything else. Or you run a modern head/cam etc setup like many of us have and get an effectively modern engine, for WAY less than trying to convert.
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Old 01-19-2011, 06:17 PM   #22
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But isn't the alternative to "crap heads" either profesisonally ported iron heads or aftermarket aluminum heads? And one alternative to tuning the induction side aftermarket EFI?

Neither of those are what you'd call inexpensive approaches, though they do work quite well. IOW, the expense gap between building up the pushrod motor and doing a relatively minor tweak on a newer motor is getting smaller.

Don't get me wrong - I have nothing against pushrod motors. I've built several different versions of the SBC for the Malibu in my sig, and a more or less stockish rebuild of a 302/5.0 for swap into my daughter's '66 C-code coupe. And folks are getting serious power out of the LS motors.


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Old 01-19-2011, 07:44 PM   #23
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Everyone has an opinion... Mine tends to stem from being on a very tight and small budget, so I go for things that provide the best bang for my buck.

Well, we could do an apples to apples comparison. I have a 71 that came with a 2v 351C. I have a 4v HO sitting next to it on the floor right now, mild comp 270H cam in it. Now I know I can build mine cheaper, mainly because I have the parts I need and the block is relatively fresh but .040 over. I have been thinking about putting a 393 or 408 stroker kit in it. A balanced one runs about $1200-$1500 through Summit. All the heads need is springs, but they will probably get new valves too, since the stock ones are almost as old as I am. Figure another $1000-$1300 for machine work to get another Cleveland to where mine is. The cool thing is they dont need much in the way of aftermarket parts to run really freakin hard.

My car is in bare metal right now, still needs about $450 worth of sheet metal for the fuel tank, trunk, and tail panel. I would guess I can finish my 71 with a stroker Cleveland, an AOD or 4R70W trans, and get mileage near 20mpg with it cheaper than someone can put a new Coyote in another 71-73. Of course that doesnt include labor, because I do all the work on my cars, so that would be the only way to make it fair. Parts for parts I know I can build a faster better handling 71 with the Cleveland, for less money. I can probably have ti done sooner too, and i still have to finish my 65 GTO that is sharing shop space with the Mustang.

The biggest difference is that someone is going to have to do all that labor to get the Mustang II or some other front suspension under it so the mod engine will fit. Then they will have to do the wiring and the rest of the swap. Even a 71-73 isnt wide enough in the shock towers to fit a modular, its just too wide. Length in these cars is irrelevant, there is enough room for a straight 6 which is longer than most V8s anyway.

Norm mentioned the LS1, just so happens I have one. Its a pushrod engine, makes better power all through the rev range than the mod engines, gets much better mileage, and is quite a bit smaller so it fits in almost anything. So far even my 98 (slowest of all the 4th gen F bodies) has never lost to a mod Mustang that wasnt blown, and even some of those didnt fare too well. If I added just a stall converter to it then it would 1/4 better than quite a few modded 03-04 Cobras. Whats the point? The mod engines are quite expensive to build, even compared to the LS1, and the bang for the buck just isnt there. A bud of mine has a 99 Z28 that had 2.73 gears, never had the engine open, only bolt ons with a stall, and it ran 11.80s NA, with just the rear seat removed. I have yet to see a Mustang do that. Headers, lid, underdrive pulley, and a stall. That was all of his mods. Sorry the mod engines just dont make the power without a blower. Blower means more $$$$$$$$$.

Sure they are cool engines, and they drive ok nice, but if you are going to spend enough money to put one in, then why not have it make some power while you are at it? If I had enough funds to put one in, I would be going with EFI and an overdrive trans with my Cleveland and its stock heads.

Now if you want to do something sacrilegious and put an LSx engine in the Mustang, then at least you will not have to change the suspension, you would make better power cheaper, it would be lighter still, and it would get better mileage than the mod or the older engine. If I wasnt so deas set against stuffing them in non GM and in Muslce Cars like my GTO, I would probably put a 6.0 LS engine in my Mustang. THat just isnt me. I wont put them in my Trans Ams nor my GTOs either, but I want one in my 76 C10 shortbox...
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Old 01-19-2011, 09:31 PM   #24
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The mod engines are quite expensive to build, even compared to the LS1, and the bang for the buck just isnt there. A bud of mine has a 99 Z28 that had 2.73 gears, never had the engine open, only bolt ons with a stall, and it ran 11.80s NA, with just the rear seat removed. I have yet to see a Mustang do that. Headers, lid, underdrive pulley, and a stall. That was all of his mods. Sorry the mod engines just dont make the power without a blower. Blower means more $$$$$$$$$.
2011 Mustang GT - 10.97 N/A with bolt-ons: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c62zJ-4Bo48

Their dyno test on the unmodified car did 368 RWHP. That was spending exactly $0 to 'build' a mod motor. How much does it cost to build a 5.0 SBF to do that kind of power? Stoker kit? Aluminum heads? Intake? Cam? That adds up to a lot more than $0 to 'build' a 412 HP 5.0 mod motor. It might cost a lot to put one in a classic Mustang, but building them isn't that expensive. A 4.6 4V N/A can make 400 HP with a set of cams - $1000. Yes $1000 for a set of cams is expensive (compared to $100 for a SBF) but that is all you need to hit 400 HP N/A on a little 281 - you don't need to buy heads, intake, and carb. That won't even buy you a decent set of heads for a small block. Mod motors are expensive to work on - a full set of gaskets will set you back about $300 (though most are resuable), but there really isn't much 'building' to them.

I don't think you need to replace the front end on a 71 for a mod motor. I've seen 67-70 cars with the towers trimmed with 4V mod motors.
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Old 01-20-2011, 01:20 AM   #25
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He wants 25k for this car
http://www.youtube.com/user/THRstang.../2/YgKCeo-LW1Q Or
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0Bccc4MbjM
I'll take this over any mod motor http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgXJD...eature=related
But you forget to tell the, above 400hp is all a mod motor can do all motor most need a blower to break in the 500s.If you want to compare power look up a ls2 or ls6 or grab a lq4 from a truck its a 6.0 iron block swap the heads and use a car intake you got a ls2 cheap.

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Old 01-20-2011, 02:38 AM   #26
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2011 Mustang GT - 10.97 N/A with bolt-ons: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c62zJ-4Bo48

Their dyno test on the unmodified car did 368 RWHP. That was spending exactly $0 to 'build' a mod motor. How much does it cost to build a 5.0 SBF to do that kind of power? Stoker kit? Aluminum heads? Intake? Cam? That adds up to a lot more than $0 to 'build' a 412 HP 5.0 mod motor. It might cost a lot to put one in a classic Mustang, but building them isn't that expensive. A 4.6 4V N/A can make 400 HP with a set of cams - $1000. Yes $1000 for a set of cams is expensive (compared to $100 for a SBF) but that is all you need to hit 400 HP N/A on a little 281 - you don't need to buy heads, intake, and carb. That won't even buy you a decent set of heads for a small block. Mod motors are expensive to work on - a full set of gaskets will set you back about $300 (though most are resuable), but there really isn't much 'building' to them.

I don't think you need to replace the front end on a 71 for a mod motor. I've seen 67-70 cars with the towers trimmed with 4V mod motors.
Perhaps you should look up info before you post things. That 10 second 2011 did it with bolt ons, revamped exhaust(including cat delete), tune, suspension, gears, tires and a 100 shot of nitrous. You think all that cost 0$ to achieve? It has thousands of dollars in mods on top of an already $30k+ car. And you're being completely ignorant of reality....spending $0 to "build" the engine? Did they get the car for free? No, they didn't spend the money to "build" the engine, they spent money to buy it....like most everyone does since they can't build engines.

Building 2 engines by hand, the Mod type engine will always be more expensive. The only reason Ford can offer it at the price they do is because it's mass produced.

And can you fit it in a classic by notching shock towers? Yes, but you still compromise the structural rigidity of the upper suspension mounting points, AND with just notching, trying to get headers on or off or spark plus in or out is all but impossible.
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Old 01-20-2011, 04:53 AM   #27
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Hell try pulling a head on most mod motors in anything.Most you have to pull the engine to pull a head.I can give a list of problems and design flaws on the mod motor like the spark plugs blowing out and took ford 11 years to fix that one.Blow by is good one too i seen a crown vic come in with no oil it took 6 quarts to even read on the dipstick.The egr system is funny too good and causing problems and throw the car in limp mode.The coil packs are good for 100k replacing them is around 100 bucks up depending brand.The timing chain guides last about 150k before the chain eats past the plastic in to the metal on them which isn't good.The plastic intake on most crack and leak with some age.
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Old 01-20-2011, 08:35 AM   #28
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Perhaps you should look up info before you post things. That 10 second 2011 did it with bolt ons, revamped exhaust(including cat delete), tune, suspension, gears, tires and a 100 shot of nitrous. You think all that cost 0$ to achieve? It has thousands of dollars in mods on top of an already $30k+ car. And you're being completely ignorant of reality....spending $0 to "build" the engine? Did they get the car for free? No, they didn't spend the money to "build" the engine, they spent money to buy it....like most everyone does since they can't build engines.

Building 2 engines by hand, the Mod type engine will always be more expensive. The only reason Ford can offer it at the price they do is because it's mass produced.

And can you fit it in a classic by notching shock towers? Yes, but you still compromise the structural rigidity of the upper suspension mounting points, AND with just notching, trying to get headers on or off or spark plus in or out is all but impossible.
Actually, they ran the 10.97 ALL MOTOR - no nitrous. Yes it has bolt-ons (and suspension work). (They ran 10.58 with nitrous.) My post was to show Thumpin455 a non-supercharged bolt-on mod motor that would run with his friend's 11.80s LS since he has never seen one. The new Mustang runs 12.7s off the showroom and get into the 11s pretty easily (with a tune, tires, exhaust work [not headers]).

My $0 reference was to the stock 368 RWHP. And the point still stands - it takes some money to get a 5.0 SBF to make that kind of power, because they came from the factory 150-200 HP short of that. A guy on VMF put a new (stock) 5.0 crate motor in a 66 and it dynoed 400 RWHP with the FRPP tune - out of the box. That's 450 or more at the flywheel. Again, how much money does it take to add 200 HP to a 5.0 SBF? That 5.0 won't be 'stock' and it won't be a bolt-on motor either (unless you consider heads and a cam bolt-ons).

My point about 'building' the engine (and I believe Thumpin455's as well) was to what we have to do to get power of it it, not what it costs Ford to build it. It doesn't cost much to 'build' a 5.0 mod motor you have in your car to get 400 RWHP; it costs quite a bit to get a 5.0 SBF to do that.

Notching the shock towers might compromise strength, but Ford (or Car Craft) did it in the Boss 429s so it's probably not going to cause the car to fall apart. (And the spark plugs on mod motors are on top of the valve covers, like on a hemi.)

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Originally Posted by andrewmp6 View Post
He I'll take this over any mod motor http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgXJD...eature=related
Personally, I'd rather not have that as my daily driver (or at all for that matter).

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But you forget to tell the, above 400hp is all a mod motor can do all motor most need a blower to break in the 500s.
That's not completely accurate. http://forums.corral.net/forums/showthread.php?t=515518

Sure these motors have a lot of work done to them but (for comparison) so does that 475 RWHP Fox in the youtube video. The top 3 5.4L motors on corral all beat the Fox by 125 HP with less engine (330 ci). The top motor probably makes 800 HP at the crank. Most of these are bigger than 4.6, but the top 4.6 made 501 RWPH (probably 575 FHWP). That's a little beyond 'all a mod motor can do' - 400 HP.

Yes, mod motors do respond to boost. That's probably because they come from the factory so good (heads, cams, intakes, EFI systems) that you can't improve them much with traditional small block mods. (Again, a new 5.0 that makes 150-200 HP more than an old 5.0 has some pretty good factory parts. A 4.6 N/A might have trouble going too far beyond 400 FWHP, but that is smaller than a 289 and it takes a LOT of stuff to get a 289 to 400 net HP, and it won't be nearly as well-mannered. Even the 4.6 2V PI motors made as much real HP as the 'Shelby 289 306 HP K code' back in the day, and that 4.6 is a motor they put in grandma cars.)

I'm not arguing that mod motors are the way (or the only way) to go. But given Ford's run with them (and yes they have had problems from time to time, as they have with all their motors), they aren't junk and are probably here to stay. I doubt Ford is going to bring back the small block for new cars any time soon. (And one of the Mustang magazines referred to the new 5.0 as the best motor Ford has ever made.)

Are there fast SBF's - sure. I can show you fast Hondas! If we're talking about a daily driver (as the OP said), a 5.0 is not a bad motor if he wants to do the work and spend the money. Will it be cheaper and easier to put in a 351C or SBF crate motor -certainly. Would I (personally) want to drive a 475 RWPH 347 as a daily driver, probably not. I'd rather sit at the light with a car that purrs like a kitten and then let the other guy watch my taillights when the light turns green (that is, if I were still inclined to do that sort of thing at my age ). But to each his own.
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Old 01-20-2011, 01:27 PM   #29
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Jeez....where to start...


First, dyno numbers are complete BS 99% of the time. There are actually very few dynos on the PLANET that are properly calibrated and certified to be accurate.... most plain aren't. All these 300this and 400that rwhp numbers are complete garbage in nearly every case. Ignore them, dynos are a tuning tool, nothing more. Case in point the Z06 Vette is an honest 505hp, SAE certified. In a ~3,100lb car it can run deep into the 11's off the show room floor with a good driver. They're ~450rwhp. The 2011 is ~400-500lb heavier which means with an honest 450rwhp it should be going into the mid 11's with ~1.90 60's......and they're not. Not without significant mods at least(ie, getting into the engine with cams etc). Much more than a few bolts ons and a tune.

Second....they did not run 10's on the stock motor. I can guarun-f'g-tee you they did not. They were observed running 10's on the bottle...but later STATED they ran 10.97 on just the engine. By that point the car had been gutted, and had a bunch of other mods, and no one knows what was really up with it. Could it be done n/a? Sure, I've seen a n/a 302 run low 9's on a Powerglide(shifting at over 9k). But it's not anything close to a stock, streetable engine at that point. You're looking at the very least, full bolt ons(easily streetable), a lot of gutting, and a highly aggressive tune that would need race fuel to avoid blowing the engine apart. Yes, the Coyote is an impressive engine, yes the stock 2011's are quick, yes with mods they're quicker. That's true of any car. But to get one into the 10's on just the motor you're looking at close to $10k in mods(or more, so now you're into the car for over $40k) and making it no longer what many would consider streetable.

Third, as far as cost....a SBF 5.0 is cheaper to build, even with heads and everything else. My engine is totally custom with a different rod ratio, lighter internals, heads, custom cam etc etc etc. To have it built by hand it would be close to a $10k crate engine. The Coyote is a mass produced engine where cost is a concern....to build one up by hand to the same level(I will absolutely guarantee you my engine will survive where a Coyote will not) would cost well over $10k. The only reason Ford offers it at the price they do is because it's mass produced, and it's made with cheaper parts(PM rods, hyper pistons etc etc). It was designed from the factory to run as it is....not faster(like the 03/04 Cobra powerplants were....being able to take 2x the power they made). The engine isn't free to build up....you buy the car with it, which is a $30k+ car.

It's far FAR cheaper to build a SBF in a Classic than it is to put a Coyote in one. For the cost of swapping a stock Coyote into a Classic, you could build a rock sold, injected, blown 347 and make and easy 600hp at the crank that would be completely streetable.

And who cares about purring like a kitten at idle? Do you drive the car at idle? What matters is how it runs when you drive it. My car idles with a rumble/chop at ~800rpm. On ~11" of vacuum. At 4,200ft of elevation it idles at ~800rpm....at sea level it idles at ~800rpm.....there's less than a 50rpm idle speed difference across 4k ft of elevation with a carburetor. Hardly poor idle quality or unstreetable. Off idle power is superb. And again, it's on a long rod 302, where a 347 making even more power would be just as streetable or more.

Can a Mod/Coyote be put in a Classic? Sure. Will it run great? Sure. Is it worth the cost involved? Not even close.
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Old 01-20-2011, 02:23 PM   #30
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Can a Mod/Coyote be put in a Classic? Sure. Will it run great? Sure. Is it worth the cost involved? Not even close.
I guess that depends on how one defines 'cost involved' and 'worth'.
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Old 01-20-2011, 02:33 PM   #31
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Considering you can get the same power and drivability for less than half the money by using a SBF or BBF or Cleveland etc.

The only upside to it is the cool factor.
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Old 01-20-2011, 02:55 PM   #32
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Considering you can get the same power and drivability for less than half the money by using a SBF or BBF or Cleveland etc.

The only upside to it is the cool factor.
So, what exactly does it cost to get 500 HP from a SBF? I'm seeing prices for 347 crate motors from $4800 (for 330 HP) to $8700 (for 450 HP) at Summit. Ford Racing has a 392 that makes 475 HP for $8700.

If you buy or build a forged short block, aluminum heads, cam, intake, carb or EFI, you'll probably have at least $5K or $6K in it, right? (That is, assuming you're going to do it right. We could just go to the pick and pull and grab a 351W or 351C and dress it up a little and put it in. Put in a cam and intake, and maybe get 400+, but if we're talking about a classic restoration, perhaps a nice cruiser, we'd probably want something a little nicer than that, at least a rebuild with new rings and bearings.) Are we talking about forged internals or just using a stock shortblock? If we're just talking about putting on some cheap heads and intake, with a cam, on an old shortblock, then that'll be cheap. But I can put a Vortech package on a Lincoln Mark VIII motor and make 500 HP pretty easily (and I've put together a Vortech kit for $1000 on ebay before) and have less than $2000 in the motor. It seems like when talking about how cheap it is to build a SBF compared to a mod motor there are lots of apples and oranges to consider.

Not trying to continue an argument, I'm just curious how much cheaper it really is. Granted you have to do some suspension work (at least notch the towers) to put in a mod motor, but I'd guess I have less in my Heidts front end than most guys have in their upgraded stock front end. I've seen R&P kits that cost more than a full Heidts kit. Again, lots of apples and oranges.
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Old 01-20-2011, 05:22 PM   #33
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First consider that a built SBF isn't using stock internals like all the MOD engines you're talking about are(except for 03/04 Cobra blocks which are al forged internals). You're trying to compare costs on a built up SBF with much better internals to a stock MOD with stock internals that you slap a blower on. One will last where the other will not.

But a built 347 that's making ~500hp Can run you upwards of $10,000 depending on what you get, sometimes more. Typical crate engines you buy run ~$7,500 for a 347 and are good for 450-500hp n/a. And it bolts right in. A typical MOD 450-500hp built crate engine runs ~$15,000 and up.....twice the cost and usually using a blower(because they're smaller cid). The SBF will bolt in without fuss....the MOD engine will not, it requires front suspension conversion, steering conversion, fabrication(several thousand $ more)....different trans/bellhousing etc. And those are for 2 comparably built engines.

And that doesn't even get into all the nickel and diming you may run into along the way in large conversions, in addition to compromised handling.

You seem hard up to act like a MOD engine is free or dirt cheap, and all you have to do is just slap a blower on it and go. Then you're comparing a SBF with rock solid internals to a stock MOD shortblock. The fact of the matter is that built MOD's average nearly 2x the cost to build as comparably built SBF's. And most MOD's require better heads to make that kind of power, ported or at least good factory 4V heads which are not cheap(more expensive to set up often than buying a brand new set of aftermarkets for SBF). Plus conversion costs, fuel system, trans etc.

Performance engines that are built to survive are always expensive, and the more complex the engine, the more expensive it build up. That's why comparable GM LS crate engines are cheaper than MOD counterparts, the engine is less complex...even though both are new engines.

Sure, you can get a MOD engine from somewhere, junkyard etc, slap a blower on it and go....but it's never going to take the kind of abuse that a built engine will. Regardless of SBF, MOD, LS etc, built engines are just that....built, so they survive.

Complex engines like the MOD are much more expensive to build. That's one of the reasons SBF's still dominate the power arena among Fords and represent the vast majority of engines out there....they're much cheaper to build for power. And then step it up...MODS are cheap to build in comparison to some of the European stuff which is even more complex.
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Old 01-20-2011, 06:49 PM   #34
Norm Peterson
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On a really level playing field - 4.6 vs 289 and/or Coyote vs 302, everybody normally aspirated and coming at least somewhere near meeting current emissions and economy requirements, I wonder how big the gap truly would be then.

I'm sure that there's some development left in the pushrod motors, but redesigned heads with improved valve angles aren't going to be cheap (I just read about somebody's 9° SBC heads - forget whose - where OE was/is 23°). Head bolts that fasten deeper down in the block rather than only into the deck surface is another relatively recent development. There's quite a few things that somebody like Dart might be able to do within the basic SBF dimension set. It would still look like a garden-variety SBF anyway.


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Old 01-20-2011, 09:06 PM   #35
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GM has done some pushrod development via the LS family. Cathedral ports being the most obvious. But others are more subtle, block design changes etc.

Here's something some people might find interesting. Comparison between a Formula 1 powerplant(2.4L n/a V8) and a NASCAR Cup powerplant(5.8L n/a V8). It brings up the point that the Cup engine has much more severe limitations placed on it beyond just being a 2V pushrod engine. Considering that, and that these engines represent the pinnacle of engine development in their respective design types....gives you an idea of how narrow the gap really is on a more level playing field, at least in terms of where technology, design and so forth can take engines.

Keep in mind that a typical Cup engines costs ~$60,000 whereas an F1 engine costs ~$330,000. Phenomenally more cost for a few % more efficiency in a much less rules restricted engine. Gives you an appreciation for just how well carb'd pushrod engines generate power for $$ spent, especially when taken to the limit.

http://www.epi-eng.com/piston_engine..._cup_to_f1.htm
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Old 01-20-2011, 09:16 PM   #36
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But a built 347 that's making ~500hp Can run you upwards of $10,000 depending on what you get, sometimes more. Typical crate engines you buy run ~$7,500 for a 347 and are good for 450-500hp n/a. And it bolts right in. A typical MOD 450-500hp built crate engine runs ~$15,000 and up.....twice the cost and usually using a blower(because they're smaller cid).

You seem hard up to act like a MOD engine is free or dirt cheap, and all you have to do is just slap a blower on it and go. Then you're comparing a SBF with rock solid internals to a stock MOD shortblock. The fact of the matter is that built MOD's average nearly 2x the cost to build as comparably built SBF's. And most MOD's require better heads to make that kind of power, ported or at least good factory 4V heads which are not cheap(more expensive to set up often than buying a brand new set of aftermarkets for SBF). Plus conversion costs, fuel system, trans etc.
My 4.6 mod motor cost substantially less than the $10,000 figure you quoted for a 347 making 500 HP (closer to your price for the 450-500 HP 347). Granted, I have a blower, but I built it with new forged internals (well the crank was used and reworked), and the price includes $1000 in machine work and the blower. The bottom end should stand up to 700 HP (at least that's the rating on the Manley rods) - basically the same internals as the Terminator, but more compression and different pistons (Mahle). And I spent extra money on things like ARP main and head studs, MMR oil pump, Canton pan and windage tray and still came in way under the $10,000 for the 500 HP 347 (including the electronics). That's hardly twice the cost of a comparably stout SBF.

You can buy the 4.6 Aluminator long block for less than $7K and still have $3K left to spend on the blower setup (which easily can be done, with new takeoff parts) and still be under the $10K mark. Again, I fail to see how that comes out to twice the cost of a comparably build SBF.

I'm not comparing a stock 4.6 motor (non-Terminator) with a blower to a built small block. I was comparing that to a dirt-cheap junk yard build SBF with stock internals. Neither (assuming the SBF is a 289/302/5.0 short block) is going to last long at 500 HP. If you want cheap, the Mark VIII with a Vortech is comparable in cost (or less) to a junk yard build. If you want high-end, the Aluminator crate motor with a blower is still in the range of your $10K 347. Again, where is twice the price?

There are other costs - transmission (but you do need one of those for the SBF too, probably an upgrade to a TK500 at 500 HP) and fuel system (if you're using EFI on the small block, you need the same fuel system). The main difference is modifying the car to take the larger motor.
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Old 01-20-2011, 09:39 PM   #37
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My 4.6 mod motor cost substantially less than the $10,000 figure you quoted for a 347 making 500 HP (closer to your price for the 450-500 HP 347). Granted, I have a blower, but I built it with new forged internals (well the crank was used and reworked), and the price includes $1000 in machine work and the blower. The bottom end should stand up to 700 HP (at least that's the rating on the Manley rods) - basically the same internals as the Terminator, but more compression and different pistons (Mahle). And I spent extra money on things like ARP main and head studs, MMR oil pump, Canton pan and windage tray and still came in way under the $10,000 for the 500 HP 347 (including the electronics). That's hardly twice the cost of a comparably stout SBF.

You can buy the 4.6 Aluminator long block for less than $7K and still have $3K left to spend on the blower setup (which easily can be done, with new takeoff parts) and still be under the $10K mark. Again, I fail to see how that comes out to twice the cost of a comparably build SBF.

I'm not comparing a stock 4.6 motor (non-Terminator) with a blower to a built small block. I was comparing that to a dirt-cheap junk yard build SBF with stock internals. Neither (assuming the SBF is a 289/302/5.0 short block) is going to last long at 500 HP. If you want cheap, the Mark VIII with a Vortech is comparable in cost (or less) to a junk yard build. If you want high-end, the Aluminator crate motor with a blower is still in the range of your $10K 347. Again, where is twice the price?

There are other costs - transmission (but you do need one of those for the SBF too, probably an upgrade to a TK500 at 500 HP) and fuel system (if you're using EFI on the small block, you need the same fuel system). The main difference is modifying the car to take the larger motor.
An undressed engine maybe. You can get a 347 built for ~$10k with all forged internals, with standard accessories, brackets, and induction. The "turn key" crate engine. If you get something like the Aluminator you still need accessories, induction, ECM, harness etc. It's not ready to run unless you already have the other stuff. Typical 347 long blocks are around $7,500 to just buy one(range from $6-8k), without induction or accessories etc.

I'm talking about fully dressed, ready to run engines. And not Ebay bargain shopping, but buying parts new. If you buy parts off Ebay etc do it for the 347 too, you'll spend a lot less money, sometimes half as much. So let's look new...the Aluminator is $7,000 for the long block....then a blower will run you as little as $3,000 for something like a Vortech, to upwards of $7k for a roots/screw type unit. So now you're at anywhere from $10-14k for an engine that still has no ECM, no harness, and no ignition, and still needs basic accessories and brackets. Then you start adding all that in, plus a much more complex and expensive fuel system for an injection(especially blown) engine, vs a carb that uses a dirt cheap fuel system. Costs on an SBF package will obviously go up with an injected setup.

Everything new you're rapidly approaching $20,000 to build a blown MOD engine and have it ready to run. If you can get deals on stuff that's great, do your own work etc. A lot of us do that. I have a $10k 302 that I built for ~$6k. I'm talking about the price to put together a performance engine package and everything else needed to make it run. For the average guy, going out and buying a powerplant package and everything else to make it work, you're looking at anywhere from 1.5x as much to 2x as much for a MOD engine.

I'm not sure how you came in under $10k for a blown MOD engine with electronics, because there's no way in hell I could order up something like that out of Summit, for instance, for less than $15,000 not counting a fuel system.
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Old 01-21-2011, 03:15 AM   #38
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I would love to see a 800hp all motor mod motor ill eat my hat.Better yet 500hp all motor pump gas.
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Old 01-25-2011, 09:46 PM   #39
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I definitely got more than I asked for starting this thread. Thanks to all for the great ideas, warnings, and advice.

After considering the points made here, and doing some more research, I have decided to stick with my 351C and pass on the Coyote - at least for now. Perhaps in a few years if I still have the itch, and some cash to scratch it with, I will change my mind. But for now, it's time to plan the 351C rebuild.

I will again ask for advice from y'all, since the last time I took down a 351C was 1983. Things have changed a lot since then. So look for a new thread from me, and we'll get another debate going!
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Old 01-26-2011, 01:18 AM   #40
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In the end it all comes back to how much money you have.
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Old 01-26-2011, 01:18 AM
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