351W or 302 Stroker in a 1965 Mustang
03-07-2011, 03:01 PM
#62
2nd Gear Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: az
Posts: 459
Thanks for all the great advice last time, so I thought I would try it again. Everyone's knowledge was very helpful and greatly appreciated. I am still debating the engine upgrade in my 65. Currently 302/5 speed completely restored (down to the frame) and in process of upgrading suspension, rear, brakes and trans to performance equipment. I have been researching since my last post and have a whole new set of questions. I now know a 351W will fit with a header kit modification and little else, so I have read. I am just trying to get the best bang for my buck since I have WAY too much in this car already. What is the consensus of the best way to go-351 or stick with my 302. Both will be built and the W heads replaced with aftermarket (I know the argument between W and C, but a C is alot more work to get to fit in the narrow compartment. All I am after is around 400 HP and I know either can easily provide that. This is primarily a weekend street car. If I go to the 351, is it a bolt in since my flywheel, clutch and plate are racing upgrades for my 302? I haven't gotten to even drive the car since the current project started (new 3.92 posi rear, RYR flywheel, Spec clutch and plate, 12" Wilwood discs on all 4's,
17" AR 500 wheels, BF Goodrich Super Sport tires, and some other minor problems to solve. Now the driveshaft doesn't fit because the new rear is wider than the 65. All these are brand new parts so I really cannot afford to buy those over again. I have not seen any weights on the 302 vs the 351 as that could easily be a determining factor. If anyone wants to share some of their knowledge it would be greatly appreciated. I need it. Don't get too technical as I am learning as I go. Thanks.
17" AR 500 wheels, BF Goodrich Super Sport tires, and some other minor problems to solve. Now the driveshaft doesn't fit because the new rear is wider than the 65. All these are brand new parts so I really cannot afford to buy those over again. I have not seen any weights on the 302 vs the 351 as that could easily be a determining factor. If anyone wants to share some of their knowledge it would be greatly appreciated. I need it. Don't get too technical as I am learning as I go. Thanks.
03-07-2011, 03:18 PM
#63
6th Gear Member
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: California
Posts: 10,468
If you want dyno numbers, sure. The best indication of mod choice is what others are running and what they're getting out of it. There have been plenty of combos that looked great on a dyno, but ran like crap in the car.
03-07-2011, 04:24 PM
#64
3rd Gear Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: tn
Posts: 889
or reason for difference like dyno headers, cherry picking numbers, different intake, etc?
03-07-2011, 05:12 PM
#65
6th Gear Member
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: California
Posts: 10,468
Look at race teams, they don't finish testing on the dyno. The baseline a setup on the dyno then tune it based on track results. Dynos don't load engines the way they're going to be loaded irl, so a combination that works on a dyno may or may not work well in real application. Even Formula 1 designers who have some of the most sophisticated dyno setups on Earth, that can load the engine to account for any particular track and transmission, still base most of their changes off actual vehicle performance.
All a dyno tells you is torque output on a dyno. It can't tell you how fast the engine will accelerate in gear in a car with a given tire. It can't tell you how responsive the engine will be in gear in a car with throttle position changes. And sometimes(especially with carb'd setups) the fuel ratio and timing the engine wants on a dyno are different than in the real world. An intake or exhaust that gives great dyno numbers might make a car lazy or unresponsive.
This is from an article on Pro Systems site, to give you an example of how dynos can be extremely misleading....
"Eddy current and water brake dyno collected data is interesting information and are a good baseline for tuning (Inertia type dynos like the ones built by Mike Laws are just incredible and are the exception to this next statement), BUT racetrack collected data can sometimes be so wildly different than the dyno it's scary. But high end racetrack data collection systems that have the ability to collect this data are so incredibly sensitive and expensive that only the highest end operations can afford them. But the data you get from them is just incredible.
Let me give you an example: In high end race engines that burn let's say 400 lbs/hr of fuel at torque peak, on the dyno, simply adding or taking away 20 lbs/hr of fuel will dramatically hurt the power output of that engine. Yet on the race track some of these engines draw in and REQUIRE sometimes an EXTRA 100 lbs/hr of fuel to get going down the track. 100 lbs!! Thats AMAZING when you think about it...that would normally cause big misfires or knock the plugs right out during a pull on the dyno. These same engines, that on the dyno will get fussy about 1/2 degree of timing will LOVE 2-3 degrees thrown in them in the lower gears and the bottom of every shift on the racetrack. But without the equipment to map that data or even perform these operations, you will never know these facts, unless you have this high end acquisition. "
Sometimes dynos help, sometimes they hurt. But the only thing certain about them, is they are inconsistent....or consistently unreliable. That's why anyone who's been around automotive performance long enough has seen plenty of cars that have setups that show low dyno numbers, but constantly outperform other setups that show high dyno numbers.
The ONLY thing dynos should be used for, is to tune baselines on a given combination, to get you into the ballpark for fuel/ignition. Then you fine tune for best performance. Or you can use them for internal component engineering, to test for reliability under load and rpm. But you don't use dyno numbers to pick parts for a combination, you use what's proven to work to pick parts for a combination.
All a dyno tells you is torque output on a dyno. It can't tell you how fast the engine will accelerate in gear in a car with a given tire. It can't tell you how responsive the engine will be in gear in a car with throttle position changes. And sometimes(especially with carb'd setups) the fuel ratio and timing the engine wants on a dyno are different than in the real world. An intake or exhaust that gives great dyno numbers might make a car lazy or unresponsive.
This is from an article on Pro Systems site, to give you an example of how dynos can be extremely misleading....
"Eddy current and water brake dyno collected data is interesting information and are a good baseline for tuning (Inertia type dynos like the ones built by Mike Laws are just incredible and are the exception to this next statement), BUT racetrack collected data can sometimes be so wildly different than the dyno it's scary. But high end racetrack data collection systems that have the ability to collect this data are so incredibly sensitive and expensive that only the highest end operations can afford them. But the data you get from them is just incredible.
Let me give you an example: In high end race engines that burn let's say 400 lbs/hr of fuel at torque peak, on the dyno, simply adding or taking away 20 lbs/hr of fuel will dramatically hurt the power output of that engine. Yet on the race track some of these engines draw in and REQUIRE sometimes an EXTRA 100 lbs/hr of fuel to get going down the track. 100 lbs!! Thats AMAZING when you think about it...that would normally cause big misfires or knock the plugs right out during a pull on the dyno. These same engines, that on the dyno will get fussy about 1/2 degree of timing will LOVE 2-3 degrees thrown in them in the lower gears and the bottom of every shift on the racetrack. But without the equipment to map that data or even perform these operations, you will never know these facts, unless you have this high end acquisition. "
Sometimes dynos help, sometimes they hurt. But the only thing certain about them, is they are inconsistent....or consistently unreliable. That's why anyone who's been around automotive performance long enough has seen plenty of cars that have setups that show low dyno numbers, but constantly outperform other setups that show high dyno numbers.
The ONLY thing dynos should be used for, is to tune baselines on a given combination, to get you into the ballpark for fuel/ignition. Then you fine tune for best performance. Or you can use them for internal component engineering, to test for reliability under load and rpm. But you don't use dyno numbers to pick parts for a combination, you use what's proven to work to pick parts for a combination.
03-07-2011, 08:19 PM
#67
2nd Gear Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: NC
Posts: 341
This is as specific as I can be. I have no idea what is in the engine. I bought the engine and 5 speed from a guy who swapped an engine with another guy in PA. Rough idle but this doesn't tell you a lot. New 600 cfm Avenger carb. RYR competition flywheel, Spec clutch and plate. Keisler Engineering prototype 3.92 posi rear. Wilwood 12" disc on all fours with power assist, proportioning valve. AR 500 17" wheels with BF Goodrich Super Sport tires. Griffin radiator/front fan. Inexpensive NPD headers. Everything else and every piece of chrome is new but everything else is stock. After the engine I plan to add a new 6-speed. Currently researching frame and body stiffners. I really screwed up and built this car backwards due to inexperience and a lot of bad advice, Now I'm paying the price, twice.
Thanks
Thanks
03-07-2011, 08:24 PM
#68
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: TX
Posts: 37
I've been looking at this block for when I build a 347.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-150110/
Can't beat the price for a block that has all the machining done. It's not a 4-bolt block but I'm not too concerned for my build. The last time I used a machine shop it was $900 and that was for a stock rebuild on a 400. Most of the stroker rotating assemblies are in the $1,400 and up range, plus about the same price for most heads ($900 and up). You're at $3500 right there before intake, carb, fuel pump, pulleys, belts, distributor, valve covers, starter, alternator etc. (unless you already have all that) Best of luck. Sounds like it's gonna be a sweet ride.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-150110/
Can't beat the price for a block that has all the machining done. It's not a 4-bolt block but I'm not too concerned for my build. The last time I used a machine shop it was $900 and that was for a stock rebuild on a 400. Most of the stroker rotating assemblies are in the $1,400 and up range, plus about the same price for most heads ($900 and up). You're at $3500 right there before intake, carb, fuel pump, pulleys, belts, distributor, valve covers, starter, alternator etc. (unless you already have all that) Best of luck. Sounds like it's gonna be a sweet ride.
03-07-2011, 08:32 PM
#69
3rd Gear Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: tn
Posts: 889
why not pull valve cover and measure cam lift?
i would go a step farther and use degree wheel to identify lift at 0.006, 0.05 and max lift if there is any chance cam will be reused.
got a short list of your restoration mistakes?
top down instead of ground up?
i would go a step farther and use degree wheel to identify lift at 0.006, 0.05 and max lift if there is any chance cam will be reused.
got a short list of your restoration mistakes?
top down instead of ground up?
03-07-2011, 08:42 PM
#70
2nd Gear Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: NC
Posts: 341
Back to engines on the cheap:
damn cheap 260ish hp at the crank
-Buy a good used 302 HO from an 87 to 93. Don't pay more than a couple hundred.
-bolt on an air gap intake
-research belt options and installing a 50oz engine into a vintage mustang
If you have the means to do it yourself I would:
-turn crank, hone the cylinders yourself
-rering the bottom end
-tap the front oil galley plugs for a pipe thread plug
-new oil pump
-arp head bolts
disassemble and port the heads-it's not hard if you are handy with tools and have a big air compressor
-new valve springs, retainers and lock- trick flow had a kit
-crane/ford 1.7 ratio pedestal rockers- used on CL
-stock cam new timing chain learn to degree cam and set up rocker geometry on pedestal style heads-kind of a pain
You shouldn't have any piston to valve clearance issues. Any stock style header will bolt up
The next stup up in my opinion 375ish hp easily
-contact a good engine builder and buy a complete top end package from them, this includes heads with springs set up for a custom cam, custom cam, intake, lifters and eventually pushrods
-tell them you want to bolt this up to a stock HO bottom end, clarify whether or not you are willing to notch the pistons
-bottom end same as above
Next up would be a complete engine you assemble. A stroker is the way to go here. Fordstrokers is recommended often. I have never used them. However, I am grateful to the owner. SBftech.com is his and very informative.
Plan out all the parts. Nearly everyone forgets everything they need and the stuff adds up fast.
flywheel
block plate
harmonic balancer/damper
crank and bearings
rods and bearings
pistons, pins and rings
head, intake, pan and valve cover gaskets
head bolts
heads
valve springs, retainers, locks, rockers, rocker studs, rocker nuts
pushrods
timing cover
timing chain
water pump
oil pan
headers
carb
It adds up fast.
damn cheap 260ish hp at the crank
-Buy a good used 302 HO from an 87 to 93. Don't pay more than a couple hundred.
-bolt on an air gap intake
-research belt options and installing a 50oz engine into a vintage mustang
If you have the means to do it yourself I would:
-turn crank, hone the cylinders yourself
-rering the bottom end
-tap the front oil galley plugs for a pipe thread plug
-new oil pump
-arp head bolts
disassemble and port the heads-it's not hard if you are handy with tools and have a big air compressor
-new valve springs, retainers and lock- trick flow had a kit
-crane/ford 1.7 ratio pedestal rockers- used on CL
-stock cam new timing chain learn to degree cam and set up rocker geometry on pedestal style heads-kind of a pain
You shouldn't have any piston to valve clearance issues. Any stock style header will bolt up
The next stup up in my opinion 375ish hp easily
-contact a good engine builder and buy a complete top end package from them, this includes heads with springs set up for a custom cam, custom cam, intake, lifters and eventually pushrods
-tell them you want to bolt this up to a stock HO bottom end, clarify whether or not you are willing to notch the pistons
-bottom end same as above
Next up would be a complete engine you assemble. A stroker is the way to go here. Fordstrokers is recommended often. I have never used them. However, I am grateful to the owner. SBftech.com is his and very informative.
Plan out all the parts. Nearly everyone forgets everything they need and the stuff adds up fast.
flywheel
block plate
harmonic balancer/damper
crank and bearings
rods and bearings
pistons, pins and rings
head, intake, pan and valve cover gaskets
head bolts
heads
valve springs, retainers, locks, rockers, rocker studs, rocker nuts
pushrods
timing cover
timing chain
water pump
oil pan
headers
carb
It adds up fast.
