Top end kit
03-23-2011, 12:26 PM
#11
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03-23-2011, 12:44 PM
#12
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First off, I don't know everything. I suggest you do more homework before buying anything. I wouldn't use magazines as a research reference. This build seems like a typical build from several years ago. It should easily make 300 at the crank. However, given the money you are spending, you can make more power. I stongly urge you talk with a reputable cam designer/engine builder and buy everything from them. It may be cheaper to buy bare heads and piece the components then it would be to buy complete heads and buy more components to work with the cam you end up using. I would guess that a good designer would recommend larger heads with a short duration, larger lift cam. The kicker would be if you were willing to notch the pistons or not, with the TW heads you may not have to.
Based upon the info given my guess would be:
TW 185 or 190 fast as cast heads
1.7 rockers
cam by the guru you hire
victor jr intake
750 carb
You didn't mention what transmission you have. That may change things.
Regardless, don't spec this out yourself. You are spending a lot of money. Do it right the first time. Don't forget to add up the little stuff. It can eat you alive if your wife doesn't first.
Based upon the info given my guess would be:
TW 185 or 190 fast as cast heads
1.7 rockers
cam by the guru you hire
victor jr intake
750 carb
You didn't mention what transmission you have. That may change things.
Regardless, don't spec this out yourself. You are spending a lot of money. Do it right the first time. Don't forget to add up the little stuff. It can eat you alive if your wife doesn't first.
03-23-2011, 12:49 PM
#13
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Join Date: Jan 2011
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Maybe, but the problem is I just bougth this one for the 302 in it now and $ is getting tighter and tighter. I might have to keep it for a while and make it do for now. I just read a thread that 750 was way to much fuel. This gets confusing because my knowledge is about 0. That is why I keep asking. The more I learn the better choices I can make. Any suggestion on better cams? Remeber this is a street car. Thanks.
Last edited by Dennis Marks; 03-23-2011 at 12:56 PM.
03-23-2011, 02:36 PM
#14
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Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Cork, Ireland
Posts: 6,417
the more people yopu ask the more opinions you get and when you are not exactly understanding what you are talking about things get more confusing than helpful.
let me put it to you this way. the combination you quoted originally should surpass the 300HP mark at flywheel. If you are running a T5 they are rated at 300ftlbs, so a lot more will just crack the gearbox.
you are throwing money at it at the moment and if you give it the extra, it might well break your gearbox. Either you have the dosh now to go mad or you have to go in stages like a lot of us here. Probably most of us.
I am at my end with the power I can produce as if I do anything more to my engine I'll probably start destroying my gearbox. I couldn't possibly afford any more power adders as they would ask me to exchange the box.
67m302 quoted ed curtis for a custom cam. that doesn't mean they'll give you a cam that maximes power. If you tell them you want a cam that makes the best torque under the curve and from idle to 5000, then this is what they'll grind for you. if you tell them you want a lumpy idle and a cam that makes peak power at 8000 they'll grind you one of them as well. however your engine will not survive this as it's not a race car.
the extra you are paying at Ed Curtis is that they will make the cam for your exngine that matches your purpose 100%.
For example I use a comp cams that is tried and tested and at some stage in the future i might call them to make a cam for me. In my case it will not be for peak power, it will be power at exactly what rpm I want it to be.
The e303 is an old grind and there's probably a few different comp cams that they could pick off the shelf that would work better for you.
you could easily leave the carb that you have on it, call comp cams, tell them what you are planning and let them suggest a cam for you. no it won't be perfect, but the car will be funn to drive. guaranteed.
At the time when you have money again, well swap the gearbox, cam and carb and you will be happy again
This is the way I see this at least. If you want to build 'the perfect engine' you have to dosh out a lot of money in advance and probably end up having to replace other parts of the car ...
let me put it to you this way. the combination you quoted originally should surpass the 300HP mark at flywheel. If you are running a T5 they are rated at 300ftlbs, so a lot more will just crack the gearbox.
you are throwing money at it at the moment and if you give it the extra, it might well break your gearbox. Either you have the dosh now to go mad or you have to go in stages like a lot of us here. Probably most of us.
I am at my end with the power I can produce as if I do anything more to my engine I'll probably start destroying my gearbox. I couldn't possibly afford any more power adders as they would ask me to exchange the box.
67m302 quoted ed curtis for a custom cam. that doesn't mean they'll give you a cam that maximes power. If you tell them you want a cam that makes the best torque under the curve and from idle to 5000, then this is what they'll grind for you. if you tell them you want a lumpy idle and a cam that makes peak power at 8000 they'll grind you one of them as well. however your engine will not survive this as it's not a race car.
the extra you are paying at Ed Curtis is that they will make the cam for your exngine that matches your purpose 100%.
For example I use a comp cams that is tried and tested and at some stage in the future i might call them to make a cam for me. In my case it will not be for peak power, it will be power at exactly what rpm I want it to be.
The e303 is an old grind and there's probably a few different comp cams that they could pick off the shelf that would work better for you.
you could easily leave the carb that you have on it, call comp cams, tell them what you are planning and let them suggest a cam for you. no it won't be perfect, but the car will be funn to drive. guaranteed.
At the time when you have money again, well swap the gearbox, cam and carb and you will be happy again
This is the way I see this at least. If you want to build 'the perfect engine' you have to dosh out a lot of money in advance and probably end up having to replace other parts of the car ...
Last edited by kalli; 03-23-2011 at 02:41 PM.
03-23-2011, 03:05 PM
#15
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Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: California
Posts: 10,468
As far as a carb, it depends. An old 600cfm with crappy straight leg boosters and crappy metering systems might have issues making signal. A new 750cfm with annular boosters and a nice metering system might make 2x the signal strength or more. It depends on the carburetor. I have a mechanical 650 on my street 302, my biggest problem has been too much signal in some areas(low rpm). In retrospect, a 750 might have been better on my setup(unless I can tune the 650, which I should be able to).
As long as the carb makes the required signal and can meter fuel, size isn't that major of an issue. Too large a carb can result in signal loss, too small reduces pumping efficiency and costs power. That said, it'll run better with a carb that's too small rather than too big, but again, it depends entirely on what carb it is.
03-23-2011, 03:48 PM
#16
2nd Gear Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: NC
Posts: 341
the more people yopu ask the more opinions you get and when you are not exactly understanding what you are talking about things get more confusing than helpful.
let me put it to you this way. the combination you quoted originally should surpass the 300HP mark at flywheel. If you are running a T5 they are rated at 300ftlbs, so a lot more will just crack the gearbox.
you are throwing money at it at the moment and if you give it the extra, it might well break your gearbox. Either you have the dosh now to go mad or you have to go in stages like a lot of us here. Probably most of us.
I am at my end with the power I can produce as if I do anything more to my engine I'll probably start destroying my gearbox. I couldn't possibly afford any more power adders as they would ask me to exchange the box.
67m302 quoted ed curtis for a custom cam. that doesn't mean they'll give you a cam that maximes power. If you tell them you want a cam that makes the best torque under the curve and from idle to 5000, then this is what they'll grind for you. if you tell them you want a lumpy idle and a cam that makes peak power at 8000 they'll grind you one of them as well. however your engine will not survive this as it's not a race car.
the extra you are paying at Ed Curtis is that they will make the cam for your exngine that matches your purpose 100%.
For example I use a comp cams that is tried and tested and at some stage in the future i might call them to make a cam for me. In my case it will not be for peak power, it will be power at exactly what rpm I want it to be.
The e303 is an old grind and there's probably a few different comp cams that they could pick off the shelf that would work better for you.
you could easily leave the carb that you have on it, call comp cams, tell them what you are planning and let them suggest a cam for you. no it won't be perfect, but the car will be funn to drive. guaranteed.
At the time when you have money again, well swap the gearbox, cam and carb and you will be happy again
This is the way I see this at least. If you want to build 'the perfect engine' you have to dosh out a lot of money in advance and probably end up having to replace other parts of the car ...
let me put it to you this way. the combination you quoted originally should surpass the 300HP mark at flywheel. If you are running a T5 they are rated at 300ftlbs, so a lot more will just crack the gearbox.
you are throwing money at it at the moment and if you give it the extra, it might well break your gearbox. Either you have the dosh now to go mad or you have to go in stages like a lot of us here. Probably most of us.
I am at my end with the power I can produce as if I do anything more to my engine I'll probably start destroying my gearbox. I couldn't possibly afford any more power adders as they would ask me to exchange the box.
67m302 quoted ed curtis for a custom cam. that doesn't mean they'll give you a cam that maximes power. If you tell them you want a cam that makes the best torque under the curve and from idle to 5000, then this is what they'll grind for you. if you tell them you want a lumpy idle and a cam that makes peak power at 8000 they'll grind you one of them as well. however your engine will not survive this as it's not a race car.
the extra you are paying at Ed Curtis is that they will make the cam for your exngine that matches your purpose 100%.
For example I use a comp cams that is tried and tested and at some stage in the future i might call them to make a cam for me. In my case it will not be for peak power, it will be power at exactly what rpm I want it to be.
The e303 is an old grind and there's probably a few different comp cams that they could pick off the shelf that would work better for you.
you could easily leave the carb that you have on it, call comp cams, tell them what you are planning and let them suggest a cam for you. no it won't be perfect, but the car will be funn to drive. guaranteed.
At the time when you have money again, well swap the gearbox, cam and carb and you will be happy again
This is the way I see this at least. If you want to build 'the perfect engine' you have to dosh out a lot of money in advance and probably end up having to replace other parts of the car ...
03-23-2011, 04:06 PM
#17
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: NC
Posts: 341
There is no calling him, his number is not listed(even though I'm a customer, I don't have it). You send him an email through his site, and he gets back to you. He works a lot and has a family, so he might get back to you in a day, or a week. But, if you already have the other cam, then it is what it is. The nice thing about a custom cam though, is you get exactly what you want out of the engine(provided the rest of the combination is right), it just costs a bit more....though some of the ots grinds from Comp are also over $300.
As far as a carb, it depends. An old 600cfm with crappy straight leg boosters and crappy metering systems might have issues making signal. A new 750cfm with annular boosters and a nice metering system might make 2x the signal strength or more. It depends on the carburetor. I have a mechanical 650 on my street 302, my biggest problem has been too much signal in some areas(low rpm). In retrospect, a 750 might have been better on my setup(unless I can tune the 650, which I should be able to).
As long as the carb makes the required signal and can meter fuel, size isn't that major of an issue. Too large a carb can result in signal loss, too small reduces pumping efficiency and costs power. That said, it'll run better with a carb that's too small rather than too big, but again, it depends entirely on what carb it is.
As far as a carb, it depends. An old 600cfm with crappy straight leg boosters and crappy metering systems might have issues making signal. A new 750cfm with annular boosters and a nice metering system might make 2x the signal strength or more. It depends on the carburetor. I have a mechanical 650 on my street 302, my biggest problem has been too much signal in some areas(low rpm). In retrospect, a 750 might have been better on my setup(unless I can tune the 650, which I should be able to).
As long as the carb makes the required signal and can meter fuel, size isn't that major of an issue. Too large a carb can result in signal loss, too small reduces pumping efficiency and costs power. That said, it'll run better with a carb that's too small rather than too big, but again, it depends entirely on what carb it is.
03-23-2011, 04:34 PM
#18
6th Gear Member
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: California
Posts: 10,468
"In the business" is an interesting term. I don't own a shop or anything if that's what you mean, worked in some, went to school for engines etc etc. Mostly do it for my own amusement. Spend a lot of time reading and learning. Most of us that have been doing this for a while learned what does and doesn't work in some areas based on experience.
And budget dictates everything, that's the way it goes. As for a carb, again, budget...but something like a basic Holley 4150 or a 4150 style from someone else. Carbs can get VERY expensive though, mine is a base $550 carb, but with all the crap I've done to it and the tuning parts I have into it, I'm sure there's over $1,000 worth of carb/parts.
And budget dictates everything, that's the way it goes. As for a carb, again, budget...but something like a basic Holley 4150 or a 4150 style from someone else. Carbs can get VERY expensive though, mine is a base $550 carb, but with all the crap I've done to it and the tuning parts I have into it, I'm sure there's over $1,000 worth of carb/parts.
03-23-2011, 06:29 PM
#19
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Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: NJ
Posts: 1,027
I used Ed for my cam...actually for my entire valve train. I would not go bigger than a TFS 170 in a 302 daily driver. Ed also recommended Jesse at Bigs Carbs, Jesse you can call. Carbs can get expensive, my 650dp was $750 and I haven't started tuning.....but Jesse said it would be perfect out of the box. Like Ed, there is a lot of information you need to give them before they spec the product.
Don't be turned off by emailing Ed, many times I got a response within 5 minutes, other times it was a day but at that time he was sick with the flu.
Don't be turned off by emailing Ed, many times I got a response within 5 minutes, other times it was a day but at that time he was sick with the flu.
03-23-2011, 07:09 PM
#20
6th Gear Member
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: California
Posts: 10,468
I used Ed for my cam...actually for my entire valve train. I would not go bigger than a TFS 170 in a 302 daily driver. Ed also recommended Jesse at Bigs Carbs, Jesse you can call. Carbs can get expensive, my 650dp was $750 and I haven't started tuning.....but Jesse said it would be perfect out of the box. Like Ed, there is a lot of information you need to give them before they spec the product.
Don't be turned off by emailing Ed, many times I got a response within 5 minutes, other times it was a day but at that time he was sick with the flu.
Don't be turned off by emailing Ed, many times I got a response within 5 minutes, other times it was a day but at that time he was sick with the flu.
And yes, they will want to know everything about your setup.