Oak

Just bought another 65 fastback and I want to make it my commuter, so thats why I am going to do a Coyote Swap, I live in Southern California and I am looking for a shop for the install on this one.........at least thats what I am thinking about initially. I have done a lot of reading ref the oil filter problems, the oil pan problems, the power steering problems the cooling problems etc etc. All of these dont seem to be such problems as they were just a few years ago. I am either looking for someone who has been through this or a shop that has done a few.

Turn key engines and JBA racing are the first two that come to mind....just looking for some input

Oh yeah I need two doors for my fastback project, lol

Oak

67mustang302

Are you dead set on a Coyote? It's going to be expensive and require a lot of modification. For the same money you can get more performance out of the engine and suspension with a SBF and modified stock type suspension (and the same reliability). If you want a Coyote just to do it, then be prepared to spend a ton of money and have the project take a long time to get done. And I wouldn't take that kind of project to a shop unless you trust them to look after your children.

You can have a Classic commuter car without a Coyote swap, in case you thought otherwise. And if you're concerned about engine performance, right now there isn't much support for the Coyotes; while SBF's have a monstrously huge aftermarket.

Have you even made up a budget for paying a shop to do a Coyote swap into a 65 correctly?

Oak

My Coyote experiences are mostly in the Cobra World. I know about 15 people with a Coyote in their kit cars and the install was pretty straight forward, the modifications to the front suspension on the FB are pretty basic too as I have a TCI in my 66 coupe. I guess it is all relative but for less than 10k you get the motor and PCM, then a complete trans and drive shaft from Keisler for 4k? Doesnt seem to horrible to me. My Coupe has a 434 that was 10k and the Keisler SS700 was over 4k.

I am looking for a turnkey performer that I dont have to tune. The biggest reason for using a shop for me is gonna be the wiring but the Cobra guys tell me it is three wires? And I guess fairly simple to sort out the cooling. I was just hoping there was as many folks here who I could talk to as on the Cobra Forum, because of the modifications needed to this old jalopy. I will talk to my plastic car buddys and get back LOL

Oak

67mustang302

Well, kit cars are a lot easier because they're often engineered from scratch to work with these types of setups. It's almost a drop in with some of them. To get it into a Classic you have to convert the front suspension, cut out and reweld the shock towers (the Mod/Coyote family is WAY wider than a SBF and won't fit without modification to the car), and deal with all the little crap along the way...such as cooling, engine mounts etc.

Paying a shop to do it right, the whole project will likely run $25k or more. Engine, trans, suspension, labor. I'm personally not a fan of these swaps, just because of the shock tower mods; the factory type suspension is pretty badass when set up right. But you need to find a shop that can do it correctly and set the front suspension up right, otherwise the car will have handling issues. Especially since the Ford OHC engines are usually a bit heavier and have higher cg's than SBF's. So like I said, a shop you trust with your children.

Hooking it up shouldn't be an issue really, EFI harness these days are largely idiot proof. The various connectors can only connect to 1 thing, so you can't hook anything up wrong. The harness may look like a big, black octopus; but once you hook it all up you'll realize it was pretty painless. There will be a bit of wiring, fuel pump relays, power system etc, but it's really not that hard and there are plenty of EFI forums where people can help. But if you pay a shop to modify the car, then it's really not much more to pay them to wire it in at that point.

Iskwezm

Check out Hillbank Motorsports in Irvine or I know Bodie Stroud has been doing a lot of these swaps.Theres also Poor Boys Hot Rods (ex Boyd Coddington fabricator).There are TONS of aftermarket parts availble(blowers,turbos,intakes, cams) as well as tuning makes a big difference.My buddy at Racers Edge Tuning does a lot of upgrades weekly on these engines.

67mustang302

There aren't "tons" of parts for the Coyotes (it depends on your definition of tons), it's still a new engine. There are some, yes; but nothing compared to established engine families (ie, dozens of companies making heads for SBFs for instance). Blowers are pretty universal though, except for brackets.

Honestly though, in factory trim the engine is pretty efficient; so it doesn't need much in the way of extra parts. It's hard to get much more power out of it without turning the rpm up a fair bit or going to a blower or more cubes. I doubt we'll see much in the way of heads for the Coyote for the same rpm range it has from the factory, it has a REALLY good head straight from Ford.

I looked at some numbers from the engine, BMEP which is an automotive engineering yardstick for comparing 2 different engines for power output in a more apples to apples way; the 4.3L in the Ferrari F430 is ~195psi based on their stated power numbers. The Coyote is ~192psi iirc. So the engines are roughly equal in terms of producing power, the Coyote just produces less total hp because it turns a lot less rpm but it has a much broader torque curve.

It's currently one of the most efficient and potent engines being produced by any manufacturer. You have to go to higher end exotics to find anything more potent.

Give it the right heads and cams, turn the rpm and take advantage of the variable cam timing....an 8,000rpm Coyote could make crazy power just on the engine.

Iskwezm

To you there are no parts, to me there are enough parts from manufacters that i deal with to make it tons to me.


Since you seem to want to have the last word on everything. we'll leave it at that.

67mustang302

You can't just use only your personal experience with only what you deal with as a definitive answer for the whole market though.

Go to Summit and do searches for common parts like intakes. They only have like 3 or 4 intakes listed for the 5.0, all from Ford. The SBF on the other hand has hundreds and hundreds of listings, with dozens of manifolds, from dozens of manufacturers. Even the 4.6 has dozens of listings. Granted, Summit doesn't sell everything available from every manufacturer, but it gives you an idea of availability.

You stated there were "TONS" of aftermarket parts available for the 5.0 (the caps were yours), as though they're just as common as for the next engine. And that's simply not true. There are catalogs filled with parts for common, older engines; but only a handful of parts listed for newer ones. That's not specific to the Coyote either, it's common for ANY new engine; the aftermarket needs time to engineer, test and produce parts.

And if all you're going to do in every thread is come in, disagree with people based only on your own view; and then insult them...how is that helping someone get an answer to their questions?

Iskwezm

I dont come in every thread and dissagree, you just like to have the last word whether you know or not like saying kit cars (Cobras) are made specifically for a Coyote. That is not true because my buddy owns Hillbank that builds cobras and you pick the engine whether its a pushrod 5.0 or Coyote, the chassis doesnt change.Any forum is probably 90% opinion and 10% experience.

He asked who can do you this swap.You gave ZERO information because you dont know yet gave numerous reasons why he shouldnt do it based on YOUR experience.This swap is not new and it will not cost $25,000 to do it. I deal with aftermarket companies all the time that have been testing for longer then the Coyote has been released.Just because its not listed on Summits site doesnt mean it doesnt exist. They are not a end all distributor nor are the Ford/Mustang specific.

67mustang302

This is exactly what I'm talking about:

1) I never said kit cars were made specifically for the Coyote, I said they were engineered to allow "these types" of engine swaps to fit in them easily; ie they're not a factory car designed for a specific engine. Many kit cars are set up to be highly flexible in terms of powertrain, so it's easier to fit a Coyote, LS1, Mod etc in them than it is to put one in a car like a 65 Mustang that was designed to accommodate a specific engine.

2) I did give information. I always mention that it's a high cost swap and not always a good idea depending on someone's goal for the car. A lot of people think it's just a matter of throwing a Mod or Coyote in a Classic like any other engine, and aren't aware of all the things that have to be done to make it work. It's to inform people of what's involved in case they didn't know, and it's potential drawbacks. I provided some basic information about engine weights, center of gravity, suspension modification, chassis modification etc, so the OP has an idea of what they're dealing with (in case he didn't already know). I also informed him that hooking up and wiring an EFI system is a lot easier than he thinks, and largely has little guesswork.

3) The swap will cost somewhere around $25k to do right, though that's ballpark. Much of cost estimation is guesswork, you don't know what any project actually costs until it's over. The engine, PCM and harness alone will run ~$10k from Ford. Then you need a fuel system that will likely cost ~$1k to do right (pump, filters, lines, tank modification etc). ~$2-3k for suspension parts (maybe more depending on what you get). That's already approaching $15k, without the transmission, cooling system, engine mounting, or any of the labor involved in modification and installation. Labor is going to run $60-100/hr depending on where you go, and that's going to be a lot of hours.

4) I even stated in my own post that Summit doesn't sell everything available or even sell stuff from all the manufacturers. What I did state, is that it gives an idea of availability of parts for different engines.


You did recommend several shops, which is good. You may disagree with some of my conclusions, fine, people disagree...which is good. But it seems like you have to take every opportunity you can to insult me, which is not so good. If you disagree with something I say, then ask questions or provide data to dispute it; I'm just asking that you don't insult me just because you disagree, and that you don't ignore what someone has to say because you think they're wrong. Maybe they're wrong, maybe you're wrong, maybe we're both wrong; but no one learns anything unless the data is discussed.