Can this crate engnine replace my 351w?
06-20-2014, 02:07 AM
#21
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2014
Location: DK
Posts: 30
Probably not, but when restoring classic cars it'll get pried out with a crowbar 
Honestly, keep chasing leads, get to know other collectors, find the local car club and keep listening.
BTW, there's an old saying that's an old saying for a reason. Speed costs money how fast do you want to go. We all have to play budget games and determine what we really need vs what we really want. I have to do it with my racing, my son's racing and my street cars.
If it's too much $$ then save up longer and drive it as is for now. Buy/sell/swap something to get more $$, is there something you can do for side work? Since I have all my own equipment I do setup work and fabrication for other racers who can't, and I use that money to supplement my racing/car budget. Is there something you can do that's similar?
Honestly, keep chasing leads, get to know other collectors, find the local car club and keep listening.
BTW, there's an old saying that's an old saying for a reason. Speed costs money how fast do you want to go. We all have to play budget games and determine what we really need vs what we really want. I have to do it with my racing, my son's racing and my street cars.
If it's too much $$ then save up longer and drive it as is for now. Buy/sell/swap something to get more $$, is there something you can do for side work? Since I have all my own equipment I do setup work and fabrication for other racers who can't, and I use that money to supplement my racing/car budget. Is there something you can do that's similar?
I actually make enough money, it's just how much i want to pull out of my *** on this
I asked a edelbrock importer here in Denmark what a ~$10.000 edelbrock crate engine would cost me in Denmark, including shipping and everything delivered to my front door, he said ~90.000 - 100.000DKK ($16500 - $18200) which is not something i want to give for a ~400HP engine.. i'm just too cheap to give that amount of money, for something that would cost me $10000 in USA.
I don't want to go fast.. i want to cruise but with the power to put down some black marks on the road
What would someone like you in the USA charge for building a 408w engine with ~450HP inlcuding labor, parts and everything? just so i know what the price range is
And since create engines are all crap unless you pay above $13000 for it, according to some of you in here (?) it would maybe be my best choice to get someone like you in USA to build me an engine, and then smuggle it into Europe to avoid the 30% tax.
06-20-2014, 08:43 AM
#22
3rd Gear Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Michigan
Posts: 516
Not all crate engines are crap. Prebuilt engines come in several categories, but we kind of use 'crate engine' as a term to describe a pre-built engine in general.
So the first set is builders who do high volume replacement engines for pickups, street cars, minivans and delivery trucks. Most of these use budget parts and use semi-skilled labor. They will only machine what 'has' to be done so they'll turn the cranks down, might sleeve a cylinder instead of getting a better block etc. While these are great for a daily driver, you don't want them in your classic mustang, especially if you're going to drive it hard.
The second set is engine builders who do 5-10 different configurations of popular engines. These are spending a lot more time in the build/machining process and they will be using better parts. You'll see these engines sold by Summit, Jegs, Speedway etc... They are still fairly high volume but for the most part they are going to be pretty relaible.
Next up are the factory performance crate engines. These are going to be good engines. Period. And if there is an issue you can get some help through the dealer you buy it from. These aren't custom built, but they are solid, made to last (with good care) and will make the power advertised.
Last group is custom build shops. These are the guys making race engines and custom street engines or working on rare muscle engines. Everything is specified, chosen for that particular engine combination, only the best parts are going to be used.
The first group is the cheapest and they get more expensive as you go through the list. Now, there are good and bad in every category. I've got a rebuilt engine in my wife's van (from group number one) that has racked up 80,000 miles with no issues. We paid $2100 for a long block. But I know people who bought from other group #1 vendors that the engine didn't last 2 years.
Do your homework. Find out about any of the builders you're interested in. Post on different forums ask for who did a good job, and who didn't. You're going to have a bit more trouble becasue of the import/export and availablity in Denmark.
Part of what is keeping the $$ high is your 400-450HP mandate. That stuff just isn't cheap to build. You've already been pricing parts so you can see where a good part of the cost is, but the hidden costs (and where the difference is between ok builders and great builders) is in the assmebly. I saw a post earlier where someone said it should only take about 6 hours to build the engine. I think that's about right, but that's AFTER you've got all the mchine work done and then spent the time to clean the block inside and out, and then checked all the machined dimensions and the dimensions of the parts and painted it. I build my race engines in an afternoon. Once I start I don't stop until I'm done. But before that I spend hours cleaning the block, checking all the clearances, massaging lifter valleys, port matching the heads/intake/headers. That stuff all takes hours and hours. For me it's free, but to an engine shop they have to get paid for it. And if I'm doing it for someone else I'm gonna get paid for it.
You've said you want to cruise and be able to lay down some marks. You don't need 450HP to do that. I can do it with my 289 4sp thats barely over 300hp. I'd look real hard at some of the Ford Racing engines. Some of them are pretty reasonable in price and they are well built, plus you might even be able to work out more delivery options through your Ford dealer.
IMO
So the first set is builders who do high volume replacement engines for pickups, street cars, minivans and delivery trucks. Most of these use budget parts and use semi-skilled labor. They will only machine what 'has' to be done so they'll turn the cranks down, might sleeve a cylinder instead of getting a better block etc. While these are great for a daily driver, you don't want them in your classic mustang, especially if you're going to drive it hard.
The second set is engine builders who do 5-10 different configurations of popular engines. These are spending a lot more time in the build/machining process and they will be using better parts. You'll see these engines sold by Summit, Jegs, Speedway etc... They are still fairly high volume but for the most part they are going to be pretty relaible.
Next up are the factory performance crate engines. These are going to be good engines. Period. And if there is an issue you can get some help through the dealer you buy it from. These aren't custom built, but they are solid, made to last (with good care) and will make the power advertised.
Last group is custom build shops. These are the guys making race engines and custom street engines or working on rare muscle engines. Everything is specified, chosen for that particular engine combination, only the best parts are going to be used.
The first group is the cheapest and they get more expensive as you go through the list. Now, there are good and bad in every category. I've got a rebuilt engine in my wife's van (from group number one) that has racked up 80,000 miles with no issues. We paid $2100 for a long block. But I know people who bought from other group #1 vendors that the engine didn't last 2 years.
Do your homework. Find out about any of the builders you're interested in. Post on different forums ask for who did a good job, and who didn't. You're going to have a bit more trouble becasue of the import/export and availablity in Denmark.
Part of what is keeping the $$ high is your 400-450HP mandate. That stuff just isn't cheap to build. You've already been pricing parts so you can see where a good part of the cost is, but the hidden costs (and where the difference is between ok builders and great builders) is in the assmebly. I saw a post earlier where someone said it should only take about 6 hours to build the engine. I think that's about right, but that's AFTER you've got all the mchine work done and then spent the time to clean the block inside and out, and then checked all the machined dimensions and the dimensions of the parts and painted it. I build my race engines in an afternoon. Once I start I don't stop until I'm done. But before that I spend hours cleaning the block, checking all the clearances, massaging lifter valleys, port matching the heads/intake/headers. That stuff all takes hours and hours. For me it's free, but to an engine shop they have to get paid for it. And if I'm doing it for someone else I'm gonna get paid for it.
You've said you want to cruise and be able to lay down some marks. You don't need 450HP to do that. I can do it with my 289 4sp thats barely over 300hp. I'd look real hard at some of the Ford Racing engines. Some of them are pretty reasonable in price and they are well built, plus you might even be able to work out more delivery options through your Ford dealer.
IMO
06-20-2014, 10:56 AM
#23
4th Gear Member
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: arizona
Posts: 1,398
hi. . are you going to contact the people i mentioned =n denmark? . . that would be the easiest route for you. . . i will post my friends number shortly. . he can do it. . i am to busy. . i will also post joe shermans number. . he can do it too. .
if you pay for parts they might be able to give you a receipt for labor only . . do what you want with that info..
do you want power at the bottom the middle or at 7000 rpm? . . . do you want low rpm on the fwy so you can drive comfy at 120 kph or is 100 kph good enough? . . . auto or manual? . . . mild moderate or nasty idle? . .
if you pay for parts they might be able to give you a receipt for labor only . . do what you want with that info..
do you want power at the bottom the middle or at 7000 rpm? . . . do you want low rpm on the fwy so you can drive comfy at 120 kph or is 100 kph good enough? . . . auto or manual? . . . mild moderate or nasty idle? . .
Last edited by barnett468; 06-20-2014 at 07:12 PM.
06-20-2014, 10:46 PM
#24
4th Gear Member
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: arizona
Posts: 1,398
Here’s some options
BLOCK – It is easier to get a late model 1971 and later block. The roller 351’s started in 94 with a casting of F4. These blocks frequently crack in #2 and #4 cam journal are, therefore I would not use one for ANY build. The 71 and later blocks are also .020” taller which is what you need for this kit. If your block is a 69, it is worth some money. It might cost around $700.00 by the time it's sitting in the builders shop, just ask them. See photo of journal crack in link below.
https://i.imgur.com/qODEh.jpg
HEADS
Afr 195 renegade $1800.00, or possibly the AFR 205 Renegade if you use the Comp Cams XE284H cam. The builder can do the math to determine this. I’m a bit lazy..
Flow – in 287 ex 220 @ .500, chamber 72 cc’s
http://www.summitracing.com/search?S...20heads%201383
Machine head surface approx .012” to 70cc's if you use the XE284h cam with no advance, mill them approx .006" to 71 cc's if you advance it 4 degrees.
BLOCK
Square block – This is unnecessary on mild builds but its nice to do to even out compression in all cylinders. I would recommend it on yours.
Deck block so pistons are .002" - .004" below the surface. This increases compression and reduces potential for detonation at the same time.
ROCKERS
Scorpion “race” model full roller aluminum.
CAM
Non rollers
Comp cams XE 274H for bottom to mid range power. It will have a noticeable “lope” at idle but will not be excessive. The car will shake/vibrate a little.
XE284H for mid to top end power. You can also advance this cam 4 degrees to lower the power band slightly. It will still be higher than the XE274H. It will have a very noticeable idle but not excessive/obnoxious. The car will definitely shake a little. Anything bigger cam than this is more than I think you are looking for.
Add $300.00 - $500.00 for a roller cam. I might use Elgin high rev lifters with one.
CAM BREAK IN - This must be done by the builder die to the high spring rates in the heads. He can send it out to be done.
PUSH RODS - 3/8" Chromolly
TIMING CHAIN Cloyes double roller with 0 or 2 degrees cam advance $45.00.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cl...view/make/ford
If block is align bored you need a shorter chain
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cl...view/make/ford
LIFTERS
Crane high rev $140.00
CRANK DAMPER – get the one with the correct number of holes for your crank pulley. The 7 hole dampers fit both.
Summit SFI certified- certified $145.00
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/su...view/make/ford
ATI SFI certified - I would run this one to reduce crank vibration and twist
http://www.summitracing.com/search/m...d=ati%20damper
ROD BOLTS – ARP or Chinese forged rods with SRP bolts.
INTAKE - Edelbrock non rpm or similar.
ENGINE BALANCE - $175.00 - $200.00
Scat 393 assy $1050.00
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sca-1-94205/overview/
I would have them upgrade to this crank for an extra $100.00.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sc...view/make/ford
STATIC COMPRESSION - With .030” over bore, 10.473
BLOCK – It is easier to get a late model 1971 and later block. The roller 351’s started in 94 with a casting of F4. These blocks frequently crack in #2 and #4 cam journal are, therefore I would not use one for ANY build. The 71 and later blocks are also .020” taller which is what you need for this kit. If your block is a 69, it is worth some money. It might cost around $700.00 by the time it's sitting in the builders shop, just ask them. See photo of journal crack in link below.
https://i.imgur.com/qODEh.jpg
HEADS
Afr 195 renegade $1800.00, or possibly the AFR 205 Renegade if you use the Comp Cams XE284H cam. The builder can do the math to determine this. I’m a bit lazy..
Flow – in 287 ex 220 @ .500, chamber 72 cc’s
http://www.summitracing.com/search?S...20heads%201383
Machine head surface approx .012” to 70cc's if you use the XE284h cam with no advance, mill them approx .006" to 71 cc's if you advance it 4 degrees.
BLOCK
Square block – This is unnecessary on mild builds but its nice to do to even out compression in all cylinders. I would recommend it on yours.
Deck block so pistons are .002" - .004" below the surface. This increases compression and reduces potential for detonation at the same time.
ROCKERS
Scorpion “race” model full roller aluminum.
CAM
Non rollers
Comp cams XE 274H for bottom to mid range power. It will have a noticeable “lope” at idle but will not be excessive. The car will shake/vibrate a little.
XE284H for mid to top end power. You can also advance this cam 4 degrees to lower the power band slightly. It will still be higher than the XE274H. It will have a very noticeable idle but not excessive/obnoxious. The car will definitely shake a little. Anything bigger cam than this is more than I think you are looking for.
Add $300.00 - $500.00 for a roller cam. I might use Elgin high rev lifters with one.
CAM BREAK IN - This must be done by the builder die to the high spring rates in the heads. He can send it out to be done.
PUSH RODS - 3/8" Chromolly
TIMING CHAIN Cloyes double roller with 0 or 2 degrees cam advance $45.00.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cl...view/make/ford
If block is align bored you need a shorter chain
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cl...view/make/ford
LIFTERS
Crane high rev $140.00
CRANK DAMPER – get the one with the correct number of holes for your crank pulley. The 7 hole dampers fit both.
Summit SFI certified- certified $145.00
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/su...view/make/ford
ATI SFI certified - I would run this one to reduce crank vibration and twist
http://www.summitracing.com/search/m...d=ati%20damper
ROD BOLTS – ARP or Chinese forged rods with SRP bolts.
INTAKE - Edelbrock non rpm or similar.
ENGINE BALANCE - $175.00 - $200.00
Scat 393 assy $1050.00
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sca-1-94205/overview/
I would have them upgrade to this crank for an extra $100.00.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sc...view/make/ford
STATIC COMPRESSION - With .030” over bore, 10.473
Last edited by barnett468; 06-20-2014 at 11:08 PM.
06-21-2014, 12:40 AM
#26
Yukon Cornelius
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: deep in the heart of dixie GEORGIA
Posts: 11,808
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