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302 Overheating Issue

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Old 08-03-2014, 05:59 PM   #1
pimp2303
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Default 302 Overheating Issue

I am running a 302 in my 66 Mustang. After i added my AC, i can not keep the temp down below 210 at a light or in traffic. I Have a 3-Row Aluminum Radiator. I had a mechanical fan with shroud that didn't work, so I tried to run a electric fan with built in shroud and that didn't work either. I have a 190 thermostat installed.

Any ideas to keep temp between 180-200 degrees?
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Old 08-03-2014, 06:06 PM   #2
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hello;

ok easy deal.

more air flow will cure your prob if it runs 195 max at 40 mph or more.

exactly what fan do you have? if it is chinese or korean, it likely flows around 1/2 the ais they claim.

if your rad is chinese like a champion, it holds 20 to 40 percent less water than a us made rad.

how hot did it run with mechanical fan?

how many blades was it?

was nit fixed or on a clutch?

did it have a shroud?
.

Last edited by barnett468; 08-03-2014 at 06:10 PM.
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Old 08-03-2014, 06:17 PM   #3
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hello;

ok easy deal.

more air flow will cure your prob if it runs 195 max at 40 mph or more.

exactly what fan do you have? if it is chinese or korean, it likely flows around 1/2 the ais they claim.

if your rad is chinese like a champion, it holds 20 to 40 percent less water than a us made rad.

how hot did it run with mechanical fan?

how many blades was it?

was nit fixed or on a clutch?

did it have a shroud?
.


with the mechanical fan it ran 215 to about 220 before i shut the car off. I believe the fan was supposed to be made in USA when i bought it but feels pretty cheap IMO. The mechanical fan was on a clutch and was 6 blades and a radiator shroud was installed. the electric fan was definitely Chinese made it came with Chinese new paper crammed in the box. bought it off ebay.
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Old 08-03-2014, 06:34 PM   #4
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hello;

what about the rad, what brand ans how many rows and what size rows.

your rad is likely too small as well.

.
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Old 08-03-2014, 09:13 PM   #5
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Champions don't hold 20-40% less water, at least not the larger ones. The 4 row I have holds a **** ton of fluid, it's actually quite large. Not sure about the 2 row, never seen it.

As for temp, sitting at a stop during the summer and being at 210-220 is fine. Most of the new cars run standard at ~210 in most cases. You don't need to worry until you start to get over ~230.
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Old 08-03-2014, 09:37 PM   #6
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.
hello pimp2303;

champions absolutely, positively, hold around 20% less water than a us made rad with the same number of tubes and the same length of tube, ie., 1/2" 3/4" etc., only knowledgeable rad people know this though. the tube has a hole in it and because it is a rectangle, the hole has a length and width or breadth. all chinese tubes are around 1/32" narrower than a us made tube. us tubes are around 1/8" so 1/8" minus 1/32" = 3/32". this is exactly a 25% reduction in size which means it is exactly a 25% reduction in capacity.

champion also inaccurately advertises that their rads can cool up to 750 hp.

in a proper cooling system, temps will not rise more than 5 degrees above the thermostat rating ever. people say its ok or acceptable but it does not mean your system is working properly, because it is certainly not.

brief temps of 210, 220 or even 230 are not usually harmful, but it is an obvious sign that your cooling system is not sufficient.

new cars are designed to run blazing hot for epa requirements. your car is not a 2014 lexus.


PS - i typically measure rad capacity by qts and oz's not by weight.
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Last edited by barnett468; 08-03-2014 at 09:51 PM.
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Old 08-03-2014, 10:20 PM   #7
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210 isn't extreme. In fact, a 195F thermostat is supposed to keep the car right about that temp. That's where Ford wanted it. That said, if it's still climbing at 220, I'd call that an under-performing cooling system.

While this isn't a quick fix for your problem, adding a pusher fan to the front of the a/c condenser should help things at low speeds.
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Old 08-03-2014, 10:43 PM   #8
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hello pimp 2303;

i forgot to mention. if you are running 50/50 anti freeze, you can run 10 percent anti freeze. it offers freeze protection to around 25 degrees above 0. also add 1 bottle of water wetter and this will drop your temps by around 5 degrees and make it cool more quickly.

you can also buy a slightly smaller diameter water pump pulley and a high flow thermostat. this will reduce temps a little.

also, moving the water outlet to the drivers side will lower them a few more degrees. you can run a long chrome flex hose to the pump and simply zip tie it to the lower core support.
.

Last edited by barnett468; 08-03-2014 at 11:13 PM.
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Old 08-04-2014, 02:04 PM   #9
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Engines run better when they're hotter. They're heat engines, the higher the temp the engine stays the more thermally efficient they are because more heat remains in the cylinder, which keeps pressure up that's exerted on the piston. It's basic physics. More power, better mileage, and less wear. It doesn't matter if it's a 2014 Lexus or a 1965 Mustang.

System temperatures can fluctuate wildly throughout the year as weather changes because outside air temp changes radiator efficiency. A 195 thermostat may hold the engine at temps under 195 in cold winter weather and 215-220 in the summer at idle/light cruise. The only way to hold the temps near the thermostat rating in the summer is to have a massively oversize radiator (impractically large).

Also, the manufacturing tolerance for a thermostat is +/- 5*F anyway. So a 195 can actually be anywhere from 190-200 and still be within acceptable parameters.

Also newer cars don't run high temps just for EPA requirements. Though it should be noted that lower emissions go hand in hand with increased performance, since emissions are byproducts of incomplete combustion; with the exception of a bit of extra HC from running rich under performance conditions. The higher temps help vaporize moisture out of oil, which increases engine life by letting the oil lubricate better. Which ironically, also helps control temperature from reduced friction (which is where engine life is increased). Ever wonder why modern cars with engines the same size produce 2x the power, 2x the mileage and have 3x the lifespan? A variety of reasons, but one is that we learned running engines hotter just works better (American automotive engineers were extremely slow to recognize their basic physics for a long time).

As for radiator brands/quality, the best ones for the money right now are Champion and Northern, both of which are made/assembled in China, with Northern cores being manufactured in Mexico and finished in China while the Champion is completely Chinese. The high dollar big name radiators are actually 2x the cost for half the quality. Tons of people use both, and rarely does anyone have a problem, and they work. On the other hand tons of people have had all sorts of issues with the big names (though this could also be due to more people buying from the big names). Champions in particular are used a ton on local/regional race cars, especially dirt track cars because they work and are affordable to replace if rocks go through them.

Keep in mind that most of Scat's cranks and rods are made in China as well, and no one breaks their **** without greatly exceeding the power ratings on them or just plain abusing them (improper balance, assembly etc). TREMEC is made in Mexico, and quality isn't one of their complaints.

As for determining radiator effectiveness, you can't just make a rough measurement of sipe size and call it good. That says nothing about the amount of contact area between the sipes and cooling fins, the surface area of the cooling fins, the conduction quality of the contact between the sipes and fins etc. In a radiator the fins matter WAY more than sipe size for cooling purposes. Aluminum conducts extremely well, as does water/antifreeze. Getting heat from the coolant into the radiator is easy, but getting it from the radiator into the air is not, because air is a ****ty conductor of heat.

Can't say for sure on other radiators, but I can say my 4 row Champion holds a **** ton of fluid. Filling the cooling system on the car takes like 3-4 gallons of water and antifreeze. It has a lot of sipes with tight fin packing, so it has a lot of heat transfer capability and fluid volume. In 110-115*F summer temps it runs at around 205-210 on the highway, and with no shroud on a ****ty little electric fan it typically stays under 220 at stoplights.

Getting hot at stops and low speed cruising is more a fan problem than a radiator problem (typically). You rely on the fan mostly to move air at that point.

Also, reading...it makes you know more stuff:

The Internal Combustion Engine in Theory and Practice: Vol. 1 - 2nd Edition, Revised: Thermodynamics, Fluid Flow, Performance: Charles Fayette Taylor: 9780262700269: Amazon.com: Books The Internal Combustion Engine in Theory and Practice: Vol. 1 - 2nd Edition, Revised: Thermodynamics, Fluid Flow, Performance: Charles Fayette Taylor: 9780262700269: Amazon.com: Books

Internal Combustion Engine in Theory and Practice: Vol. 2 - 2nd Edition, Revised: Combustion, Fuels, Materials, Design: Charles Fayette Taylor: 9780262700276: Amazon.com: Books Internal Combustion Engine in Theory and Practice: Vol. 2 - 2nd Edition, Revised: Combustion, Fuels, Materials, Design: Charles Fayette Taylor: 9780262700276: Amazon.com: Books
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Old 08-04-2014, 05:57 PM   #10
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.
hello pimp 2303;

the following are proven facts that might help you.



FACT - Cold engines produce MORE hp than a hot one. This has been proven in thousands of 1/4 mile runs and countless dyno runs. simply call joe sherman and ask him. he is 2 miles from me.

FACT - All other things being equal, a us rad with the same number of tubes and cooling fins per inch will ALWAYS out cool a Chinese rad. this has been priven not only in physics but in rear tests performed by several rad mfgs including us radiator whom has been building rads for around 63 years ans Griffen who has been building them for around 35.

FACT - There is no test proving a Chinese made rad cools better than a us one.

FACT - Water transfers heat better than antifreeze. this has also been proven in may tests including those done by one of the biggest chemical mfg's in the world.

FACT - Copper/brass transfers heat [cools better] than aluminum.

FACT - A Chinese rad will not cool your engine any better than a us made one, and since they actually do NOT hold any water or blow any air on the radiator, i have no idea why they might be relevant to your prob.

FACT - In general, most US us made rads are NOT half the quality of a Chinese rad. To say they are is not only grossly inaccurate but is also beyond ludicrous and is simply laughable.

FACT - Radiator capacity is measured by volume not weight as in "it holds a ton of water", however, if it the capacity was somehow scientifically measured by weight, then by comparison, a US made rad would probably hold around a ton and a half of water.

FACT - One model of Northern rads comes in a box that says china on it. It does not state the radiator is made in China. Perhaps Northern is buying Chinese made boxes because they cost less than US made ones. Irregardless, most Northern rads are in fact made here in Northerns huge factories. I know this because Northerns National sales mgr told me they were. Now, this was a year ago or so and it is certainly possible that they quit making all their rads here and started making them in China so they could turn their huge rad mfg plants into Chucky Cheese Pizza Parlors.

FACT - The mfgs run engines at high temps partially so the can meet epa requirements just like I said. To say otherwise not not a fact.

FACT - The Chinese rockets blow up due to poor welds.

Chinese rockets explode.

“…a Long March 2E rocket veered off course two seconds after take-off from Xichang space center and exploded, killing at least six on the ground. …a similar failure during the launch of Intelsat 708. The rocket veered severely off course right after clearing the launch tower and landed in a rural village. Following the disaster, foreign media were sequestered in a bunker for five hours while, some have alleged, the Chinese military attempted to 'clean up' the damage. Officials later blamed the failure on an "unexpected gust of wind" Xinhua News Agency initially reported 6 deaths and 57 injuries. In the aftermath of the explosion, U.S. satellite makers shared information which allowed the Chinese to determine that the problem was in the welds.”


Chinese made rockets almost kill Russians.

"Russia's 'made-in-China' Proton-M explodes during launch

Date - 02.07.2013

The upper stage of DM-03 Proton-M, which was installed on the booster rocket for the first time since December 2010, after the loss of three Glonass-M satellites, could not cause the accident at Baikonur space port in the morning of July 2. The incident occurred before the stage was activated.
"The accident occurred during the first seconds of the launch, while upper stage DM-03 was supposed to get activated during the 585th second," a source in the space industry told ITAR-TASS. He added that "DM-03 upper stage did not have any flight observations in its history, as it was one of the most reliable boosters."

According to telemetry, during the fourth second of the flight, the rocket started showing pitch displacement. After 17 seconds, engines went off. After that, the rocket began to fall apart in the air. During the 32nd second, it fell to the ground. Main engines were working before the rocket hit the ground, enabling flight control officers to take the space vehicle from the launch pad and avoid damage on the ground. The rocket fell 1.5-2 km from the ground control center, Interfax reports.

At the crash site of Proton-M, a 200-meter crater was formed."

Hey, they could fill the hole up with water and have a nice lake for boating and stuff.
.

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Old 08-04-2014, 08:19 PM   #11
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lol

You're posting things as fact, that are fact because why...you say they are? Anything to back it up other than your word?

I linked 2 books, "Taylor" as they're commonly referred to in the combustion engine world. Written by the professor Emeritus of MIT's Automotive Technology Department and the head of their Sloan Research Laboratories for decades. It is the de facto standard textbook for combustion engine performance in universities throughout the world.

Taylor directly contradicts many things you say, and it's backed up by huge amounts of test data, including the methodology and equipment used for the test, as well as numerous real world examples. And it's proofed out mathematically and explained through physics.

As for your little example, what about the Space Shuttle? Made in America and 2 of them have blown up. Does that mean anything made in America blows up?

Anyone can provide any kind of anecdotal evidence to try to back their claim up, but it means nothing because it's anecdotal. You think everything in China is crap, what about Norinco? Their weapons, when they were available in the US, were better clones than the original US weapons they cloned (their M14 knockoff was made using higher quality materials).

Also, the OP's question was about his temperature at idle and in light traffic, he didn't bring up Champion at all. You just couldn't help mentioning them, like you do in every thread about cooling, regardless of whether it's germane or not.
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Old 08-04-2014, 08:55 PM   #12
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lol

You're posting things as fact, that are fact because why...you say they are?
Partially



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Originally Posted by 67mustang302 View Post
Anything to back it up other than your word?
Yup, and I have already posted some of the sources but I guess you must have missed that part.



Quote:
Originally Posted by 67mustang302 View Post
I linked 2 books, "Taylor" as they're commonly referred to in the combustion engine world. Written by the professor Emeritus of MIT's Automotive Technology Department and the head of their Sloan Research Laboratories for decades. It is the de facto standard textbook for combustion engine performance in universities throughout the world.
That's nice for you.



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Originally Posted by 67mustang302 View Post
Taylor directly contradicts many things you say, and it's backed up by huge amounts of test data, including the methodology and equipment used for the test, as well as numerous real world examples. And it's proofed out mathematically and explained through physics.
If this is true, then sorry, but it's not my fault he's wrong.



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As for your little example, what about the Space Shuttle? Made in America and 2 of them have blown up. Does that mean anything made in America blows up?
Well, if you go back and read a bit, you will see that in one case the the seals were not the best, but they knew this BEFORE they launched. Using these seals was a calculated risk especially at the low temps they were subjected to in staging in this particular, unfortunate case.

In another case, a big piece of ice fell off and knocked a piece of the heat resistant material off on take off, so to say or imply that was the fault of the rocket, is quite a stretch, don't ya think?

The Chinese simply made bad rockets for one reason or another, lol.

Do you know what the most valuable vintage toy in the world is? It's a Chinese made toy. This is because they simply don't exist because nearly all of them break soon after use, lol.

Oh, and how do the Chinese reduce the amount of lead in their country. They put it in paint then paint their toys with it and then ship them to other countries.

Excerpt from the New York Times.

“WASHINGTON, June 18 — China manufactured every one of the 24 kinds of toys recalled for safety reasons in the United States so far this year… Last week 1.5 million trains and components were recalled because they were coated with lead paint… The toys were coated at a factory in China with lead paint, which can damage brain cells, especially in children.

Just in the last month, a ghoulish fake eyeball toy made in China was recalled after it was found to be filled with kerosene. China today is responsible for about 60 percent of all product recalls…”



Quote:
Originally Posted by 67mustang302 View Post
Anyone can provide any kind of anecdotal evidence to try to back their claim up, but it means nothing because it's anecdotal.
lol, facts are not anecdotal, and neither is my 40 years worth of personal experience.



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You think everything in China is crap,
No I don't and I never said that either and for you to try and twist what i saw in an attempt to make others think nits true is inexcusible imo.

I actually recommended Champion Chinese made rads to people when I knew from my 40 years of experience cooling engines so they would basically run at thermostat rating with the ac on in 100 degree heat, that a Champion would suffice for their particular issue. I'm always happy to also suggest items that are lower cost than others when I think it will suit ones needs.



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Originally Posted by 67mustang302 View Post
what about Norinco? Their weapons, when they were available in the US, were better clones than the original US weapons they cloned (their M14 knockoff was made using higher quality materials).
Well, ya got me there since I neither follow the mfg of assault rifles and heavy weapons etc., however since you seem to be so high on non US made items, and so down on US made ones, I suggest you simply keep buying them and maybe even move out of here to China or Korea. I'm sure they would love to have a US expatriot there, plus I hear it's nice there in the summer.

In addition, you could sell your poorly, US made Mustang that is still around after FIFTY YEARS and buy a nice, brand new, super reliable, Chinese made car with the cash and still have a few yen left over.



Quote:
Originally Posted by 67mustang302 View Post
Also, the OP's question was about his temperature at idle and in light traffic, he didn't bring up Champion at all. You just couldn't help mentioning them, like you do in every thread about cooling, regardless of whether it's germane or not.
What you are saying is an opinion and NOT a FACT, therefore, it is wrong. Radiators ARE "germane" to most cooling issues imo based on my experience, and unlike some others, I happen to know that it's beneficial to let people know something that might be relevant to their situation that they may be unaware of. Also imo, the more informed with FACTS that a person is, the better decision they can make.


Below are the numbers for Joe Sherman Racing and US Radiator. feel free to call them and get my FACTS confirmed from people that have actually done this testing in real world applications on not just in Stephen Hawkings theoretical world.

Joe Sherman Racing, ask for...Joe.
1-714-542-0515
http://www.joeshermanracing.com/


US Radiator
1-323-836-0965
http://www.usradiator.com/


PS - Now, in case you try and twist my words around and suggest that I don't like Chinese products, because I don't like Chinese people, you would be very wrong. In fact, I may even be Chinese myself.
.

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Old 08-05-2014, 01:11 AM   #13
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So, you think Taylor is wrong.

A guy on the internet, vs an MIT published textbook that is on the shelf of nearly every NASCAR, INDY and F1 engine designer. An MIT published textbook that is a global automotive engineering standard on piston engines. With decades of test data to back it up.

Since you want to play those games....

Feel free to call, and tell them they're wrong:

http://web.mit.edu/sloan-auto-lab/contact.html

http://meche.mit.edu/academic/
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Old 08-05-2014, 03:29 AM   #14
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So, you think Taylor is wrong.
That is not what i said.


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A guy on the internet, vs an MIT published textbook
Well Stephen Hawking recently said one of his theories is wrong. I guess nobody's perfect, lol.


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Originally Posted by 67mustang302 View Post
Since you want to play those games....

Feel free to call, and tell them they're wrong:

http://web.mit.edu/sloan-auto-lab/contact.html

http://meche.mit.edu/academic/
Why are they makin radiators now?

Why don't YOU call Joe Sherman and one of the biggest aftermarket rad mfgs in the world as I suggested earlier instead?
.

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Old 08-05-2014, 01:22 PM   #15
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As Hawking nears death he'll probably hope another of his theories is wrong...
Maybe the 2 of you should take chill pills or resort to PMs?
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Old 08-06-2014, 05:09 PM   #16
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Well, like I said, reading: it makes you know stuff.

There's a reason modern cars run higher coolant temperatures and plastic (insulating) intake manifolds. Older engines with aluminum intakes that make more power with lower coolant temps, do so because the intake (which is a conductor if it's aluminum) transfers less heat to the intake charge. This causes greater charge density, which is what results in more power. More air, burns more fuel, and releases more power.

That's why taking an engine with an aluminum intake and lowering coolant temperature and seeing more power on a dyno, will also see an increase in fuel consumption for the same fuel ratio, and an increase in BSFC. If the engine makes more power, it's because it's burning more fuel, but the increase in BSFC shows a decrease in efficiency; you have to burn more fuel per hp than with a higher coolant temperature.

Whether an engine makes more or less power as you change coolant temperature, depends on a whole slew of other variables; that engine shops neither check, nor are equipped to check (much of it requires a laboratory setting). How much did charge density change? What is the temperature of the air being ingested, what's ∆T? What's the difference in temp between the incoming charge and the manifold? Is the engine carb'd or TBI; if so how much does the Joule-Thompson effect change charge density? How much was fuel vaporization effected? What is the specific heat of the fuel used? How much heat energy transfer occurred between the engine and charge prior to combustion?

Different engines in different circumstances result in different outcomes. If the only variable changed is coolant temperature, and everything else remains the same; the engine will produce more power, less emissions, and get better mileage when hotter. Unfortunately, in the typical engine it's nearly impossible to keep other variables constant when you change 1 thing, because any 1 variable impacts many others. It's the same reason that higher compression tends to produce more power, more compression = more heat = more power. You need heat retention in the fuel-air charge before and during combustion to release the energy in the form of a pressure increase from additional heat in the same mass within a given volume. It's how combustion engines work.

Keep in mind that Formula 1 engines are the most efficient, and highest specific power output naturally aspirated gasoline engines on Earth, and their cooling system runs at around 260*F.
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Old 08-06-2014, 09:38 PM   #17
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Well, like I said, reading: it makes you know stuff.
Yes, and reading the wrong stuff makes you know the wrong stuff. Also, not fully understanding what you are reading does not make you know the right stuff even if the stuff you are reading is the right stuff to read.

Actually DOING stuff for 40 years makes you know how stuff works in REAL WORLD applications.

There are plenty of things that look good on paper but do not work so well in real world application . I know this for a fact, because I have not only done these things for 40 years but I also ran the R and D department for a big vehicle mfg. for several years and this mfg. won over 100 national titles and numerous world championship titles and made the fastest production vehicle in the world its class for many, many years.


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There's a reason modern cars run higher coolant temperatures
Yes, and I told you what a few of those reasons are.



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and plastic (insulating) intake manifolds.
Not a single one of my “newer” cars has a plastic intake, they are all aluminum.



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you have to burn more fuel per hp than with a higher coolant temperature.
Yup, the hotter an engine is the leaner it can be jetted. This is one of the reasons the mfgs. run them hot.

1. it improves mileage which enhances sales.

2. it improves mileage which helps it MEET EPA MILEAGE REQUIREMENTS.

2. it reduces the EMISSIONS output per mile which helps it PASS EPA REQUIREMENTS. Like I said, part of the reason to run them hot is due to EPA requirements because it helps them meet those requirements.

3. it reduces engine wear.


Thermal coatings – These help reflect the heat from the engine back into the combustion chamber where it can be used as power. They also help other parts of the engine., ie cylinder head to run cool.
Guess this either wasn’t in his book or you missed that part.

Last edited by barnett468; 08-06-2014 at 09:44 PM.
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Old 08-06-2014, 10:46 PM   #18
67mustang302
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Honestly, if you just read those books, you'd see what I was talking about. Or rather, what the author was talking about.

Mountains of real world application, mountains of lab test data, specific talk about EPA requirements. There's a reason the first volume has "thermodynamics and fluid flow" in the title. The primary author of that book and the people who helped him write it have vastly more experience than both of us combined x1,000. From people who developed WW2 fighter plane engines, to people who developed INDY engines, F1, manufacturers and so on.

Also, your 40 years of real world experience could arguably apply to your first statement. 40 years of the wrong experience, or 40 years of not understanding the reason for the outcomes in your experience etc. But all that is, is a personal attack, and doesn't prove or disprove anything. It's just an anecdotal deference to an individual's experience. Not that I'm discounting experience, because it's exceedingly valuable, but in essence what you're doing is saying: that because you have 40 years of experience from which you've drawn conclusions, the head of MIT's Auto/Sloan department's experience has resulted in the wrong conclusions. It's just a "my experience is better than your experience" argument. If that's the case, why should I trust your experience over his?

As for jetting down when hotter, that's not where mileage comes from, at least not directly. You jet down or the EFI system is programmed to lean down on a hotter engine in order to keep the fuel ratio consistent, because less air is getting into a hotter engine, right? The car needs a fixed amount of power to move at a fixed speed under given conditions. The mileage increase occurs because the hotter engine is more efficient, less energy is lost to the cooling system, so more energy is released by the fuel as usable power. So you gain mileage because you can release more energy to drive the pistons from the same amount of fuel; or put differently, you can release the same energy (and therefore produce the same fixed power needed for a given speed) from less fuel.

And yes, the book does talk about thermal coatings, it gets to exactly what I've been talking about. They keep heat inside the cylinder during the combustion process. It's the same reason that running hotter creates more efficiency. Heat energy moves from higher temperature regions to lower, and the rate of heat transfer is dependent upon the difference in temperature (as well as conductivity). Because the combustion temperatures are very high, heat is transferred from the combustion process and into the engine....so the hotter the engine runs the smaller the temperature difference between the 2, and the less heat energy is transferred into the cooling system. It's accomplishing the same thing as thermal coatings, trying to keep as much heat as possible inside the cylinder.

Again, if we want to talk specifically about power, current Formula 1 engines run at around 260*F, current NASCAR Cup engines run at around 220*F. NHRA Pro Stocks typically run very cold though, ~100*F. In terms of thermal efficiency the F1 is highest, the NASCAR Cup engine next, and Pro Stock last. In terms of cylinder pressures, the order is the same.
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Old 08-07-2014, 01:40 AM   #19
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Also, your 40 years of real world experience could arguably apply to your first statement. 40 years of the wrong experience, or 40 years of not understanding the reason for the outcomes in your experience etc. But all that is, is a personal attack...
Well, since I take cars that run hot and turn them into cars that will run at thermostat temp in 100 degree heat with the ac ON, my experience is well proven.

I also sincerely doubt that I would be running the R and D department for a big vehicle mfg if I wasn't highly qualified do you?

We also had a dyno [and an mts machine] that we ran prototype engines on and the racing engines on. these were just some of the ones that won all those championships, and attached to that dyno were several gauges, one of which was an AFR meter, just like the one that is attached to joe shermans dyno and the dynos they run the nascar engines on, so I am very familiar with afr meters and the affects of air density etc.. There were also atmospheric gauges etc..

Of course i know the people in the book are far from being morons and know they must know at least 10 physics equations to every 1 i know etc..

In addition, I built all my own vehicles and have won many pro races with them and a few championships, and never went to school or read a book on how to ride like a pro either.

I have dealt with many engineers, and as I said, what works on paper doesn't always work in the real world, plain and simple.
.


.

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Old 08-07-2014, 03:36 AM   #20
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The author of that book is definitely not an engineer that comes up with things that "work on paper." And yes, I've worked with many engineers like that as well, so I know what you're talking about.

http://web.mit.edu/hmtl/www/taylor.pdf

He was one of the primary designers of the engine that powered Lindbergh's flight across the Atlantic, and was in charge of the Sloan Research Laboratory during WW2, when a tremendous amount of engine development was being done to power fighter aircraft.
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Old 08-07-2014, 03:36 AM
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