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Old 08-03-2014, 05:59 PM   #1
pimp2303
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Default 302 Overheating Issue

I am running a 302 in my 66 Mustang. After i added my AC, i can not keep the temp down below 210 at a light or in traffic. I Have a 3-Row Aluminum Radiator. I had a mechanical fan with shroud that didn't work, so I tried to run a electric fan with built in shroud and that didn't work either. I have a 190 thermostat installed.

Any ideas to keep temp between 180-200 degrees?
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66 Mustang Coupe (302/AOD)
66 Dodge Charger (440/727)
67 Dodge Coronet R/T (440/727)
70 Mustang Vert (302 converted 390FE/AOD)
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70 Plymouth Cuda (440/727)
70 Dodge Superbee (383/727)
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Old 08-03-2014, 06:06 PM   #2
barnett468
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hello;

ok easy deal.

more air flow will cure your prob if it runs 195 max at 40 mph or more.

exactly what fan do you have? if it is chinese or korean, it likely flows around 1/2 the ais they claim.

if your rad is chinese like a champion, it holds 20 to 40 percent less water than a us made rad.

how hot did it run with mechanical fan?

how many blades was it?

was nit fixed or on a clutch?

did it have a shroud?
.

Last edited by barnett468; 08-03-2014 at 06:10 PM.
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Old 08-03-2014, 06:17 PM   #3
pimp2303
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barnett468 View Post
hello;

ok easy deal.

more air flow will cure your prob if it runs 195 max at 40 mph or more.

exactly what fan do you have? if it is chinese or korean, it likely flows around 1/2 the ais they claim.

if your rad is chinese like a champion, it holds 20 to 40 percent less water than a us made rad.

how hot did it run with mechanical fan?

how many blades was it?

was nit fixed or on a clutch?

did it have a shroud?
.


with the mechanical fan it ran 215 to about 220 before i shut the car off. I believe the fan was supposed to be made in USA when i bought it but feels pretty cheap IMO. The mechanical fan was on a clutch and was 6 blades and a radiator shroud was installed. the electric fan was definitely Chinese made it came with Chinese new paper crammed in the box. bought it off ebay.
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66 Mustang Coupe (302/AOD)
66 Dodge Charger (440/727)
67 Dodge Coronet R/T (440/727)
70 Mustang Vert (302 converted 390FE/AOD)
70 Dodge Challenger R/T (440/727)
70 Plymouth Cuda (440/727)
70 Dodge Superbee (383/727)
71 Dodge Challenger vert (340/a518)
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Old 08-03-2014, 06:34 PM   #4
barnett468
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hello;

what about the rad, what brand ans how many rows and what size rows.

your rad is likely too small as well.

.
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Old 08-03-2014, 09:13 PM   #5
67mustang302
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Champions don't hold 20-40% less water, at least not the larger ones. The 4 row I have holds a **** ton of fluid, it's actually quite large. Not sure about the 2 row, never seen it.

As for temp, sitting at a stop during the summer and being at 210-220 is fine. Most of the new cars run standard at ~210 in most cases. You don't need to worry until you start to get over ~230.
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Old 08-03-2014, 09:37 PM   #6
barnett468
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.
hello pimp2303;

champions absolutely, positively, hold around 20% less water than a us made rad with the same number of tubes and the same length of tube, ie., 1/2" 3/4" etc., only knowledgeable rad people know this though. the tube has a hole in it and because it is a rectangle, the hole has a length and width or breadth. all chinese tubes are around 1/32" narrower than a us made tube. us tubes are around 1/8" so 1/8" minus 1/32" = 3/32". this is exactly a 25% reduction in size which means it is exactly a 25% reduction in capacity.

champion also inaccurately advertises that their rads can cool up to 750 hp.

in a proper cooling system, temps will not rise more than 5 degrees above the thermostat rating ever. people say its ok or acceptable but it does not mean your system is working properly, because it is certainly not.

brief temps of 210, 220 or even 230 are not usually harmful, but it is an obvious sign that your cooling system is not sufficient.

new cars are designed to run blazing hot for epa requirements. your car is not a 2014 lexus.


PS - i typically measure rad capacity by qts and oz's not by weight.
.

Last edited by barnett468; 08-03-2014 at 09:51 PM.
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Old 08-03-2014, 10:20 PM   #7
Starfury
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210 isn't extreme. In fact, a 195F thermostat is supposed to keep the car right about that temp. That's where Ford wanted it. That said, if it's still climbing at 220, I'd call that an under-performing cooling system.

While this isn't a quick fix for your problem, adding a pusher fan to the front of the a/c condenser should help things at low speeds.
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Old 08-03-2014, 10:43 PM   #8
barnett468
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hello pimp 2303;

i forgot to mention. if you are running 50/50 anti freeze, you can run 10 percent anti freeze. it offers freeze protection to around 25 degrees above 0. also add 1 bottle of water wetter and this will drop your temps by around 5 degrees and make it cool more quickly.

you can also buy a slightly smaller diameter water pump pulley and a high flow thermostat. this will reduce temps a little.

also, moving the water outlet to the drivers side will lower them a few more degrees. you can run a long chrome flex hose to the pump and simply zip tie it to the lower core support.
.

Last edited by barnett468; 08-03-2014 at 11:13 PM.
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Old 08-04-2014, 02:04 PM   #9
67mustang302
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Engines run better when they're hotter. They're heat engines, the higher the temp the engine stays the more thermally efficient they are because more heat remains in the cylinder, which keeps pressure up that's exerted on the piston. It's basic physics. More power, better mileage, and less wear. It doesn't matter if it's a 2014 Lexus or a 1965 Mustang.

System temperatures can fluctuate wildly throughout the year as weather changes because outside air temp changes radiator efficiency. A 195 thermostat may hold the engine at temps under 195 in cold winter weather and 215-220 in the summer at idle/light cruise. The only way to hold the temps near the thermostat rating in the summer is to have a massively oversize radiator (impractically large).

Also, the manufacturing tolerance for a thermostat is +/- 5*F anyway. So a 195 can actually be anywhere from 190-200 and still be within acceptable parameters.

Also newer cars don't run high temps just for EPA requirements. Though it should be noted that lower emissions go hand in hand with increased performance, since emissions are byproducts of incomplete combustion; with the exception of a bit of extra HC from running rich under performance conditions. The higher temps help vaporize moisture out of oil, which increases engine life by letting the oil lubricate better. Which ironically, also helps control temperature from reduced friction (which is where engine life is increased). Ever wonder why modern cars with engines the same size produce 2x the power, 2x the mileage and have 3x the lifespan? A variety of reasons, but one is that we learned running engines hotter just works better (American automotive engineers were extremely slow to recognize their basic physics for a long time).

As for radiator brands/quality, the best ones for the money right now are Champion and Northern, both of which are made/assembled in China, with Northern cores being manufactured in Mexico and finished in China while the Champion is completely Chinese. The high dollar big name radiators are actually 2x the cost for half the quality. Tons of people use both, and rarely does anyone have a problem, and they work. On the other hand tons of people have had all sorts of issues with the big names (though this could also be due to more people buying from the big names). Champions in particular are used a ton on local/regional race cars, especially dirt track cars because they work and are affordable to replace if rocks go through them.

Keep in mind that most of Scat's cranks and rods are made in China as well, and no one breaks their **** without greatly exceeding the power ratings on them or just plain abusing them (improper balance, assembly etc). TREMEC is made in Mexico, and quality isn't one of their complaints.

As for determining radiator effectiveness, you can't just make a rough measurement of sipe size and call it good. That says nothing about the amount of contact area between the sipes and cooling fins, the surface area of the cooling fins, the conduction quality of the contact between the sipes and fins etc. In a radiator the fins matter WAY more than sipe size for cooling purposes. Aluminum conducts extremely well, as does water/antifreeze. Getting heat from the coolant into the radiator is easy, but getting it from the radiator into the air is not, because air is a ****ty conductor of heat.

Can't say for sure on other radiators, but I can say my 4 row Champion holds a **** ton of fluid. Filling the cooling system on the car takes like 3-4 gallons of water and antifreeze. It has a lot of sipes with tight fin packing, so it has a lot of heat transfer capability and fluid volume. In 110-115*F summer temps it runs at around 205-210 on the highway, and with no shroud on a ****ty little electric fan it typically stays under 220 at stoplights.

Getting hot at stops and low speed cruising is more a fan problem than a radiator problem (typically). You rely on the fan mostly to move air at that point.

Also, reading...it makes you know more stuff:

The Internal Combustion Engine in Theory and Practice: Vol. 1 - 2nd Edition, Revised: Thermodynamics, Fluid Flow, Performance: Charles Fayette Taylor: 9780262700269: Amazon.com: Books The Internal Combustion Engine in Theory and Practice: Vol. 1 - 2nd Edition, Revised: Thermodynamics, Fluid Flow, Performance: Charles Fayette Taylor: 9780262700269: Amazon.com: Books

Internal Combustion Engine in Theory and Practice: Vol. 2 - 2nd Edition, Revised: Combustion, Fuels, Materials, Design: Charles Fayette Taylor: 9780262700276: Amazon.com: Books Internal Combustion Engine in Theory and Practice: Vol. 2 - 2nd Edition, Revised: Combustion, Fuels, Materials, Design: Charles Fayette Taylor: 9780262700276: Amazon.com: Books
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Old 08-04-2014, 05:57 PM   #10
barnett468
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.
hello pimp 2303;

the following are proven facts that might help you.



FACT - Cold engines produce MORE hp than a hot one. This has been proven in thousands of 1/4 mile runs and countless dyno runs. simply call joe sherman and ask him. he is 2 miles from me.

FACT - All other things being equal, a us rad with the same number of tubes and cooling fins per inch will ALWAYS out cool a Chinese rad. this has been priven not only in physics but in rear tests performed by several rad mfgs including us radiator whom has been building rads for around 63 years ans Griffen who has been building them for around 35.

FACT - There is no test proving a Chinese made rad cools better than a us one.

FACT - Water transfers heat better than antifreeze. this has also been proven in may tests including those done by one of the biggest chemical mfg's in the world.

FACT - Copper/brass transfers heat [cools better] than aluminum.

FACT - A Chinese rad will not cool your engine any better than a us made one, and since they actually do NOT hold any water or blow any air on the radiator, i have no idea why they might be relevant to your prob.

FACT - In general, most US us made rads are NOT half the quality of a Chinese rad. To say they are is not only grossly inaccurate but is also beyond ludicrous and is simply laughable.

FACT - Radiator capacity is measured by volume not weight as in "it holds a ton of water", however, if it the capacity was somehow scientifically measured by weight, then by comparison, a US made rad would probably hold around a ton and a half of water.

FACT - One model of Northern rads comes in a box that says china on it. It does not state the radiator is made in China. Perhaps Northern is buying Chinese made boxes because they cost less than US made ones. Irregardless, most Northern rads are in fact made here in Northerns huge factories. I know this because Northerns National sales mgr told me they were. Now, this was a year ago or so and it is certainly possible that they quit making all their rads here and started making them in China so they could turn their huge rad mfg plants into Chucky Cheese Pizza Parlors.

FACT - The mfgs run engines at high temps partially so the can meet epa requirements just like I said. To say otherwise not not a fact.

FACT - The Chinese rockets blow up due to poor welds.

Chinese rockets explode.

“…a Long March 2E rocket veered off course two seconds after take-off from Xichang space center and exploded, killing at least six on the ground. …a similar failure during the launch of Intelsat 708. The rocket veered severely off course right after clearing the launch tower and landed in a rural village. Following the disaster, foreign media were sequestered in a bunker for five hours while, some have alleged, the Chinese military attempted to 'clean up' the damage. Officials later blamed the failure on an "unexpected gust of wind" Xinhua News Agency initially reported 6 deaths and 57 injuries. In the aftermath of the explosion, U.S. satellite makers shared information which allowed the Chinese to determine that the problem was in the welds.”


Chinese made rockets almost kill Russians.

"Russia's 'made-in-China' Proton-M explodes during launch

Date - 02.07.2013

The upper stage of DM-03 Proton-M, which was installed on the booster rocket for the first time since December 2010, after the loss of three Glonass-M satellites, could not cause the accident at Baikonur space port in the morning of July 2. The incident occurred before the stage was activated.
"The accident occurred during the first seconds of the launch, while upper stage DM-03 was supposed to get activated during the 585th second," a source in the space industry told ITAR-TASS. He added that "DM-03 upper stage did not have any flight observations in its history, as it was one of the most reliable boosters."

According to telemetry, during the fourth second of the flight, the rocket started showing pitch displacement. After 17 seconds, engines went off. After that, the rocket began to fall apart in the air. During the 32nd second, it fell to the ground. Main engines were working before the rocket hit the ground, enabling flight control officers to take the space vehicle from the launch pad and avoid damage on the ground. The rocket fell 1.5-2 km from the ground control center, Interfax reports.

At the crash site of Proton-M, a 200-meter crater was formed."

Hey, they could fill the hole up with water and have a nice lake for boating and stuff.
.

Last edited by barnett468; 08-04-2014 at 08:30 PM.
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Old 08-04-2014, 05:57 PM
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