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Old 08-08-2014, 06:48 AM   #1
Seadog
 
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Default Mustang II versus coil-over bolt in

I've read a lot, and will likely read a lot more, about doing a M II conversion or one of the bolt in systems that use the same basic setup as my 64 1/2 Mustang.

I want to end up with a good restomod that will ride and handle well as a street driver. Some favor the M II and some say it won't give me what I want and that I should use a bolt on.

Would some of you mind sharing your wisdom and experiences? Both solutions cost a lot and I sure don't have the cash to spend a bundle and then start over if I don't like the outcome.

Thanks!
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Old 08-08-2014, 11:08 AM   #2
Starfury
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Hm, just saw this thread after your post in the last one...

My question is: why? What do you hope to accomplish?

The only reason to do a MII suspension on the car would be to eliminate the shock towers. The MII suspension is an inferior design, but is used by hot rodders everywhere for its simplicity, compactness, and ease of ride height adjustment. Your SLA suspension offers much better control and suspension geometry than the MII setup, but lacks the ease of adjusting the ride height.

I wouldn't even recommend a bolt on suspension upgrade kit (ie. Global West, TCP, etc) except for severe performance applications. The advantage to the bolt-on setups is that they relocate the lower coil spring/shock "mount" point to the LCA, which does allow you to get better control and ride quality with less spring pressure. While this does work well, I think you can still get a fairly nice ride out of the factory setup for much less money.

My '67 rides fairly well, despite 540lb coils up front and a 7/8" sway bar. The Edelbrock IAS shocks and roller spring perches made a huge difference in ride quality. It doesn't ride nearly as smooth as my '99 Accord, but I'd say it's probably on par with the '95 Corolla I had until recently.
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Old 08-08-2014, 11:30 AM   #3
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I only mentioned the M II and bolt-on systems because I have heard so many people complain about the original Ford design. I'm trying to learn.......and I sure don't want to spend more money than needed.

I just want a good car for the street, i.e. a good ride, but I also want good handling. I don't need to remove the shock towers to make room for a big engine. So, besides the roller spring perches and good shocks what else do you suggest?

I plan on staying with 14 or 15 inch wheels and would like to have as wide a set of tires as will work in the space that's there. What do you suggest?

I appreciate your help.
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Old 08-08-2014, 01:34 PM   #4
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"Good" is relative And also depends on the kind of money you want to spend.

I'm very happy with the way my '67 rides and handles. It's a little stiffer than most, due largely to 540lb coils in the front and 4.5 leaf springs out back. But it handles quite well. Not well enough to keep up with a bunch of imports on windy country roads (as I found out during a spirited "cruise"), but quite a bit better than most people expect from a car fast approaching 50yrs old.

My typical recommendations are as follows:
1) Shelby UCA relocation. Relocating the UCA mounting points changes the camber curve, providing negative camber at the outside tire, resulting in more tire contact (more traction) and a lower roll center (less body roll in corners). The end result is a front end that feels like you just added a monster sway bar, but without any of the added ride harshness. There are no downsides to this mod, and it's free, aside from some drill bits and a template. Just make sure you get the template for 65-66, as the 67-70 template is different.

2) Roller coil spring perches. They make a huge difference in suspension response. The factory spring perch bushing is very stiff and doesn't allow for proper articulation, causing a bind and preventing the shock and coil spring from acting smoothly as separate entities. This bind can also result in a broken shock under extreme conditions. I broke a brand new Edelbrock shock like this before switching to roller perches. By allowing the perch to rotate freely, you allow the shock to operate properly without any side load, resulting in a smoother, more responsive suspension.

3) New coil springs. You'd be surprised how much a new set of springs can change the way the car feels. If you want a smoother ride, stick with GT springs. If you want something sportier, go with a set of 540lb springs (most places advertise these as "620" springs, which usually refers to the coil diameter, not the spring rate). I have a set of Grab a Trak 540lb springs and I'm pretty happy with them, although I plan to hack off about 1/2 a coil to even the front out with the lowered rear.

4) Proper size sway bar for the front. 7/8" is good for a nice firm, sporty feel. This is what I run. A 5/8" will give you a better ride, but allow a bit more body roll.

5) Shocks, as mentioned. The better the shock, the happier you'll be. Monroe doesn't make anything decent for these cars, so don't even try that route. KYB GR-2's will ride fairly smooth, but won't help handling much. A set of custom valved Bilsteins from Maier Racing will compliment the upgraded springs, but won't rattle your teeth out like KYB Gas-A-Justs.

6) New suspension parts. Old, worn out bushings and ball joints will handicap your suspension. Stick with quality parts. Moog is pretty much top of the line, although Mevotech makes good stuff as well. Spicer/Raybestos is ok (they use nylon ball joint sleeves, which wear out quicker), but that's about as cheap as I'd recommend. If you really want some slick UCA's, get them from OpenTracker Racing. He sells a set of UCA's with deburred shafts and tack welded end caps that I'd like to get my hands on.

6) Good steering parts. A sloppy steering system is going to make turning sloppy. Many shops will do a free suspension/steering check for you. If something has play in it, replace it.
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Old 08-09-2014, 02:25 AM   #5
barnett468
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hello;

ok what EXACTLY do you mean by improve?

you want softer like a cadilac?

you want stiffer like a truck?

you want to corner like a ferrari?

do you want to lower it?

does it bounce too much after hitting a dip like the shocks are worn out?

are you ever going to auto cross/race it?

are you ever going to drive it hard on windy mountain roads etc.?
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Old 08-09-2014, 08:04 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barnett468 View Post
hello;

ok what EXACTLY do you mean by improve?

you want softer like a cadilac?

you want stiffer like a truck?

you want to corner like a ferrari?

do you want to lower it?

does it bounce too much after hitting a dip like the shocks are worn out?

are you ever going to auto cross/race it?

are you ever going to drive it hard on windy mountain roads etc.?
.
Cadillac - no
Truck - no
Ferrari - that would be nice, but surely the street ride would suffer?
Lower it - not sure. It's got a stock stance now, 14" wheels and very ordinary tires (bias ply). I like it like it is but a little lower would look great too. I want wider tires, radials, but I won't want to anything even a little drastic to get there. The current tires look like bicycle tires!
Bounce - the front feels VERY stiff now (stock suspension but I don't know what weight springs it has), the rear bounces easily but recovers quickly too. The shocks are new, but cheap Monroes.
Windy Mountain Roads - no, but curvy black top roads here in East Texas is a definite yes.

95% of the time this will be driven on the street, just cruising. I don't want it stiff or jolting.

20140728_082946.jpg
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Old 08-09-2014, 10:44 AM   #7
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If that's the case, stick to GT coils and 4-leaf rears, along with some good shocks all the way around. It'll ride plenty smooth and handle well enough for typical street driving. The stiffer springs I run do great corner carving in the hills, but they do decrease ride quality a little.
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Old 08-09-2014, 02:39 PM   #8
barnett468
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seadog View Post
Cadillac - no
Truck - no
Ferrari - that would be nice, but surely the street ride would suffer?
Lower it - not sure. It's got a stock stance now, 14" wheels and very ordinary tires (bias ply). I like it like it is but a little lower would look great too. I want wider tires, radials, but I won't want to anything even a little drastic to get there. The current tires look like bicycle tires!
Bounce - the front feels VERY stiff now (stock suspension but I don't know what weight springs it has), the rear bounces easily but recovers quickly too. The shocks are new, but cheap Monroes.
Windy Mountain Roads - no, but curvy black top roads here in East Texas is a definite yes.

95% of the time this will be driven on the street, just cruising. I don't want it stiff or jolting.

Attachment 39014
ok xlnt you have a tough prob in the front because we have no idea what springs you have . . they may be stiff aftermarket springs . . if you jack up the front and you can turn the spring by hand a little they are stiff springs or it there is a thick 1 inch spacer on top of them they are stiff . . i woukd never call stock springs stiff . if you have koni or bilstein shocks it will be a little firm . . i would use gt front springs as starfury suggested or slightly stiffer as one option . . i would run 135 lb springs in the rear tcp makes them . . if you want it ower buy lowering sprigs that are 300 to 450 lbs if you can find them and buy mid eye or reverse eye 135 lb springs . . buy gray kyb for a softer ride or white kyb for a stiffer rode . the konis will beat you up . . install a 1 inch front sway bar with urethane bushings . . urethane bushings on strut rods . . 15 inch rims 6 inches wide with mayb205 70 tires . . roller spring perches . . the rest stock . e b1t aroub

Last edited by barnett468; 08-09-2014 at 02:45 PM.
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Old 08-09-2014, 04:51 PM   #9
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Just going to modern radial tires vs. your old bias plys should help a bit.
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Old 08-10-2014, 06:57 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barnett468 View Post
ok xlnt you have a tough prob in the front because we have no idea what springs you have . . they may be stiff aftermarket springs . . if you jack up the front and you can turn the spring by hand a little they are stiff springs or it there is a thick 1 inch spacer on top of them they are stiff . . i woukd never call stock springs stiff . if you have koni or bilstein shocks it will be a little firm . . i would use gt front springs as starfury suggested or slightly stiffer as one option . . i would run 135 lb springs in the rear tcp makes them . . if you want it ower buy lowering sprigs that are 300 to 450 lbs if you can find them and buy mid eye or reverse eye 135 lb springs . . buy gray kyb for a softer ride or white kyb for a stiffer rode . the konis will beat you up . . install a 1 inch front sway bar with urethane bushings . . urethane bushings on strut rods . . 15 inch rims 6 inches wide with mayb205 70 tires . . roller spring perches . . the rest stock . e b1t aroub
Thanks for the info! All of this is starting to make sense to me, which means I'm approaching "dangerous". I will get to checking things and making changes as time and my 100 degree garage allow. I just recently bought the car. Battling things like a battery that has no hold-down bolts, bad tail light wiring, and wiring under the hood that is just plain unbelievable.

Does anyone use a portable air conditioner in the garage?
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Old 08-10-2014, 06:57 AM
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