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advice on roller cam in 289

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Old 11-14-2014, 08:49 AM   #1
Diputado
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Question advice on roller cam in 289

Am seriously considering upgrading my current mildly-built '65 289 to a hydraulic roller cam and aluminum heads. As for the heads, have pretty much settled on AFR 165s with 58 cc chambers. But not yet too sure on the cam. Been looking at either the Comp Cams 284-HR, or the Edelbrock "Rolling Thunder" cam. Both are fairly similar, and should work well with my current 10:1 comp. ratio and 3.50 rearend. My main uncertainty relates to the lifters. I'm not too keen on drilling into the lifter valley to attach one of those "spiders", but the alternative (link-bar lifters) seem pretty expensive. Any thoughts, ideas, experience out there?
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Old 11-14-2014, 09:34 AM   #2
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What heads do you have now? If you have large chamber (post-66, I believe) heads, you're going to have to find some larger chamber aftermarket heads to keep your CR down.
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Old 11-14-2014, 10:15 AM   #3
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back in the day Ford offered Cobra Kits for our 289, everything you needed, probably no more I guess, good luck with your build, should be a Bitchin motor when you're done
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Old 11-14-2014, 01:45 PM   #4
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Get a hold of Ed Curtis at FTI (he can take some time responding, he gets crazy busy sometimes). You can get a custom roller cam from him that uses conversion lifters, and AFR heads with matching springs for the cam. You only pay like $150 more for the cam, but get better performance and something that's WAY easier on the valvetrain. He grinds his cams so they pick the valve up and set the valve down really easy, so no bounce or crazy motion, and your seats and guides live way longer.
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Old 11-14-2014, 05:54 PM   #5
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i would usae a comp cam over an eddy cam.

you need at least 3.73 gears with that cam unless you don't want it fast off the line and want higher freeway speeds instead.
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Old 11-15-2014, 10:32 AM   #6
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Thanks for these ideas. Some of y'all responded to my other post on heat soak...do double-thanks to you!

Yeah...I've seen other mention of that guy Ed at FTI. You convinced me to give him a call and see what he can do. I'm shooting for a roller cam that will produce really good midrange (2000-5000 rpm) torque, "sound good", won't beat the hell out of the valvetrain, AND work well with a 10:1 comp. ratio.

The heads....I'm currently running bone stock early '65 heads (54.5 cc chambers). Plan on having AFR flat-mill the heads down to a 56 cc chamber, so as to keep my current (more or less) comp. ratio. Currently running on 91-93 octane gas with no apparent detonation, so figure 56cc should be good with the right cam.

Overall, what I'm aiming for is a 289 (well, actually a 294!) putting out around 350 hp that's solid, dependable and will last a long time on the street. I do NOT intend to race it (been there-done that 30+ yrs. ago!), and will only be putting about 1,000-1,500 miles/year on it. You know...cruising around town on nice weekends, barking the tires when I feel like it.
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Old 11-15-2014, 01:09 PM   #7
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You email Ed, he doesn't give his number out (otherwise he spends all day on the phone and gets nothing done). You can get heads from him milled if that's what you want to do.

He uses Comp to grind his profiles too, but the lobes are his design.

Best bet is to fill out the info sheet on his site and send it in and tell him what you want.
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Old 11-15-2014, 03:50 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diputado View Post
Thanks for these ideas. Some of y'all responded to my other post on heat soak...do double-thanks to you!

Yeah...I've seen other mention of that guy Ed at FTI. You convinced me to give him a call and see what he can do. I'm shooting for a roller cam that will produce really good midrange (2000-5000 rpm) torque, "sound good", won't beat the hell out of the valvetrain, AND work well with a 10:1 comp. ratio.

The heads....I'm currently running bone stock early '65 heads (54.5 cc chambers). Plan on having AFR flat-mill the heads down to a 56 cc chamber, so as to keep my current (more or less) comp. ratio. Currently running on 91-93 octane gas with no apparent detonation, so figure 56cc should be good with the right cam.

Overall, what I'm aiming for is a 289 (well, actually a 294!) putting out around 350 hp that's solid, dependable and will last a long time on the street. I do NOT intend to race it (been there-done that 30+ yrs. ago!), and will only be putting about 1,000-1,500 miles/year on it. You know...cruising around town on nice weekends, barking the tires when I feel like it.

hello;

ok, the 284hr is WAY too big for your app.

custom cams are great but due to the extensive selection of off the shelf cams, in my experience you can get one that will perform just as good for a low to moderate build and save yourself the extra expense . . the customs are most beneficial on high horse apps imo.

both the comp xe and lunati voodoo series were designed by harold berkshire of ultradyne fame. he also designed all the voodoo cams with a soft slope on the closing side so they are easier on tje valve train

i think this cam is very close to what you might want. they also sell a complete kit.

https://mablet.com/browse.php?u=8XT0...GCJBlEkxM&b=29


if you look into a custom cam i suggest you call more than one person because they sre not all the same, tgerefore, i would also call the guy below . . unlike some other cam grinders, his stiff has won NHRA World Championships and set NHRA National records. No fancy forms to fill out prior to calling.

http://www.camresearchcorp.com/camshafts/


try this one also.

http://www.straubtechnologies.com/


QUENCH/SQUISH CLEARANCE

For optimum performance, you should mill your block so the pistons are .003" - .005" below the surface.


HORSEPOWER

You will not get 350 hp from a carbureted 289 if you only spin it 5000 rpm unless you use nitrous or a twin screw supercharger etc..
.
.

Last edited by barnett468; 11-15-2014 at 04:22 PM.
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Old 11-16-2014, 09:48 AM   #9
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Hey Barnett468,

Thanks a million for the pointers. I've seen a bunch of your posts, and you seem to know what you're talking about. As for milling the block, I'm not planning on tearing the engine down to that point...only the cam/heads. That depends on how the upper cylinders are, though (see my post the other day on heat soak issues). But if it comes to that...well, then so be it. This whole operation is way beyond my ability to do it here in my carport, but fortunately I found a good shop nearby run by a semi-retired drag racer who builds 502 Chevys that run 9-second 1/4 miles....so I figure he can handle the job!

I'll take another look at that Lunati Voodoo cam. Saw that one but haven't really thought about that one, for whatever reason. Hey...here's an important question for you....what do you think of going with a 351W/5.0 firing order? From what I understand, that firing order better distributes stresses along the crank, and also runs a little smoother. Apparently, this switch can be easily done on a 289 using the appropriate cam and just switching spark plug wires around to match. What do you think?
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Old 11-16-2014, 12:40 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diputado View Post
Hey Barnett468,

Thanks a million for the pointers. I've seen a bunch of your posts, and you seem to know what you're talking about. As for milling the block, I'm not planning on tearing the engine down to that point...only the cam/heads. That depends on how the upper cylinders are, though (see my post the other day on heat soak issues). But if it comes to that...well, then so be it. This whole operation is way beyond my ability to do it here in my carport, but fortunately I found a good shop nearby run by a semi-retired drag racer who builds 502 Chevys that run 9-second 1/4 miles....so I figure he can handle the job!

I'll take another look at that Lunati Voodoo cam. Saw that one but haven't really thought about that one, for whatever reason. Hey...here's an important question for you....what do you think of going with a 351W/5.0 firing order? From what I understand, that firing order better distributes stresses along the crank, and also runs a little smoother. Apparently, this switch can be easily done on a 289 using the appropriate cam and just switching spark plug wires around to match. What do you think?
hello;


no prob, you're very welcome, and thanks for the kind words but there are some others here that also know a lot about engines.


xr264hrf 5200 264 211 .513 110 rf

http://www.compcams.com/Company/CC/c...?csid=894&sb=0


xr270hrf 5500 270 218 .513 110 rf

http://www.compcams.com/Company/CC/c...?csid=895&sb=0



with around 9.5 compression or more, this cam will easily make around 350 hp between 5500 - 5800 rpm at the crank on most dynos with afr 165 heads and eddy rpm intake and 650 carb . . get it groound on a small base circle for a retrofit application.

xe266hr 5600 266 216 .544 112

http://www.compcams.com/Company/CC/c...csid=1056&sb=0


the firing order won't make any difference in power feel.
.
.

Last edited by barnett468; 11-16-2014 at 01:57 PM.
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Old 11-16-2014, 04:28 PM   #11
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That 270hr is a good cam that makes a lot of power in many applications; and it's not too hard on the valvetrain either.

The advantage of the 351/HO firing order was improved load distribution on the crankshaft/mains. Not really much of an issue unless you start putting more power out, then it can have an effect on bearing life, block and crank fatigue. If you have the option, it's not a bad idea, but also not necessary (the arguments for/against tend to be largely academic in most situations). Switching to the HO firing order though, also requires a different harmonic balancer technically, since you're changing the nature of the harmonics in the crankshaft. Romac makes balancers for the various balance factors and firing orders (17 different balancers for SBF). A lot of people keep the balancer for one firing order and use it with the other without issue.

Your firing order should be primarily dictated by cam selection (what's available for your app). If your balancer is in good shape, might as well use it. If it needs replacing, might as well get one that matches the firing order.
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Old 11-16-2014, 05:55 PM   #12
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Ok...good to know this info from both of you. On the balancer...well...that was the topic of another thread of mine about a year or so ago. The engine has a late 80's model 50-oz balancer off a 5.0...and a 164-tooth 28-oz flywheel from a '69 Boss 302. But...engine runs smooth. Barnett468 has commented on this in the past.

I'm going to sit down with the guy who's going to do the cam/heads swap for me, and seriously discuss whether or not to just redo the whole f***ing deal. Since the both of you are responding and seem to know your stuff....let me give you a little more info on this engine. According to the PO, he built it in 2004, and put less than 5,000 miles on it total (some on local strip). I've had it for 2 years, and have put about 1,000 miles on it (car has spent a lot of down time for other repairs). One of the first things I did was to replace the carb and intake (both were leaking), and I noticed that the valve retainers had some surface rust. Also, the oil filter seemed to be the SAME one first put on by PO, as it had blue engine paint overspray on it. Oil was very black and sticky. The PO couldn't remember what brand pistons he used...what type of bearings...cam specs...etc,etc. So...I've got NO IDEA what the hell is in the lower assembly, or it's condition. All I know is the thing doesn't smoke at any time, and cold oil pressure is around 45 psi at idle...dropping to about 38 psi at 190 degrees.
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Old 11-16-2014, 06:31 PM   #13
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the engine was rebuilt.

it has only 5000 miles on it.

the retainers were rusty.

the oil is black tar.

the oil filter was painted with the engine.

thr owner doesn't even know his own name.

you wonder if it needs rebuilding...

you can look for a ridge on the top of the cylinders and hone marks when you get the heads off.
.

Last edited by barnett468; 11-16-2014 at 07:23 PM.
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Old 11-16-2014, 07:21 PM   #14
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the engine was rebuilt.

ot has only 5000 miles on it.

the retainers were rusty.

the oil is black tar.

the oil filter was painted with the engine.

thr owner doesn't even knbow his own name.

you wonder if it needs rebuilding...

.
Yeah, pretty much this....
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Old 11-17-2014, 06:16 AM   #15
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Yeah, guys...I get the message! I'll keep you posted on the results.

Meanwhile...here's a couple photos of how the valvetrain looked when I pulled the valve covers, as well as one of how the engine looks (at least externally!) now after I replaced the old and filthy Holley Street Dominator intake and the 750 carb that was leaking fuel all over the place!
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_5141.jpg (67.3 KB, 8 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_5140.jpg (64.3 KB, 7 views)
File Type: jpg 289 Ford.jpg (59.8 KB, 5 views)
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Old 11-17-2014, 01:14 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diputado View Post
Yeah, guys...I get the message! I'll keep you posted on the results.

Meanwhile...here's a couple photos of how the valvetrain looked when I pulled the valve covers, as well as one of how the engine looks (at least externally!) now after I replaced the old and filthy Holley Street Dominator intake and the 750 carb that was leaking fuel all over the place!
take all the spark plugs out also and do a compression test first.

the push rods are varnished fron over 100,000 miles of use so he just tossed them back in after the rebuild . . hopefully tou won't need t do it . . its obvious that some wotk has been done on it.
.
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Old 11-18-2014, 06:01 AM   #17
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Yeah...I plan on just going ahead with new moly rings and Clevite bearings all around. Hopefully the pistons are still good. I noticed those pushrods, too. Will be changing them to a good-quality version such as from Comp cams or AFR. I also plan on using a heavy-duty oil pump drive from ARP. Hell, this guy probably re-used the old stock one as well.

By the way...thanks yet again for the Lunati cam recommendation. I got in touch with them and gave them all my parameters, and the cam their tech guy suggested was cam #20310514 (218/226; .500/.510; 112 LSA; 108 ICL). Coincidentally, that cam is similar to a Crane cam I ran over 30 years ago in another 289 (228/228; .500/.500).
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Old 11-18-2014, 04:53 PM   #18
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I just put a set of AFR165's on mine, the smaller chamber and a good head gasket will easily get you close to 10:1. Summit has a real good desktop compression calculator. There is a multitude of head gaskets out there (thickness) to vary your compression. The other thing I wanted to mention is the roller cams run a much higher lift upwards of 600+ vs a reasonable tappet at 510. Good example, I selected a compcams XE268H with a 230 dur and 510 lift. Compare that to a similar 4-pattern roller 281QI08 with a 240 dur and a 610 lift. My point, that small combustion chamber is going to require extra effort to check piston valve clearances if you elect to go with a roller. Please do yourself a favor and do your homework before selecting a cam. My opinion, if you're going to a roller, theres many other issues you need to consider, the cost of the block work, lifter retainers, etc. You sometimes ask yourself if its easier to just go with a 5.0 and be done with it.
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Old 11-19-2014, 08:49 AM   #19
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Hey groho, thanks for the advice. Yeah, I told the tech rep. at Lunati that I wanted a cam that would be "easy on the valvetrain", and I also specified a max. lift of .580. From the cam specs, the cam he recommended has a gross valve lift of no more than .510 (exhaust side). Also, it's a "retro-fit" roller cam and with the link-bar lifter kit, it should be a relatively simple changeover with no block machinging required (at least according to Lunati tech support), and the only major change is the firing order. Here is a link to the Lunati info on the complete kit:

http://www.lunatipower.com/Product.aspx?id=4667&gid=137

If I am missing something here or not fully understanding this cam, by all means, let me know.
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Old 11-19-2014, 11:54 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diputado View Post
Hey groho, thanks for the advice. Yeah, I told the tech rep. at Lunati that I wanted a cam that would be "easy on the valvetrain", and I also specified a max. lift of .580. From the cam specs, the cam he recommended has a gross valve lift of no more than .510 (exhaust side). Also, it's a "retro-fit" roller cam and with the link-bar lifter kit, it should be a relatively simple changeover with no block machinging required (at least according to Lunati tech support), and the only major change is the firing order. Here is a link to the Lunati info on the complete kit:

http://www.lunatipower.com/Product.aspx?id=4667&gid=137

If I am missing something here or not fully understanding this cam, by all means, let me know.
holy c__p-, $711.00. what did you tell him you wanted?

i hope you did not buy that cam yet, your car will be a pig off the line unless you use around 3.91 - 411 rear gears.
.
.

Last edited by barnett468; 11-19-2014 at 11:57 AM.
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Old 11-19-2014, 11:54 AM
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