Shocks
01-31-2015, 08:29 PM
#1
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Goodyear, AZ
Posts: 1,674
Shocks
I have a full set of GR2 shocks. I just noticed a loud squeak when hitting a bump. then after a little checking I noticed almost no movement when pushing on the front drivers side fender. Little to no compression or rebound. I think the shock may be Jammed or stuck. Seems to be binding. I have roller perches so I doubt that is the issue.
Im going to pull the shock off tomorrow and see if that's the issue.
If so, what should I replace them with. handling is important but ride quality is more important. Is there a shock that will provide both?
Im going to pull the shock off tomorrow and see if that's the issue.
If so, what should I replace them with. handling is important but ride quality is more important. Is there a shock that will provide both?
02-01-2015, 12:09 AM
#2
6th Gear Member
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: California
Posts: 10,468
The Bilstiens from Maier. The sport shocks if you're running a 600lb spring, if it's a lighter spring then the street version.
Mike also left and started his own company, Mike Maier Inc, so you can try calling and see if he's cooked up a stock replacement for the Classics (my guess though is he has something higher end from JRI).
Mike also left and started his own company, Mike Maier Inc, so you can try calling and see if he's cooked up a stock replacement for the Classics (my guess though is he has something higher end from JRI).
02-01-2015, 02:44 PM
#3
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Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Elk Grove, CA
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^that.
I have Edelbrock IAS shocks and I love them (much better than the Gas-A-Justs they replaced), but the custom-valved Bilsteins aren't much more and are valved specifically for our application.
I have Edelbrock IAS shocks and I love them (much better than the Gas-A-Justs they replaced), but the custom-valved Bilsteins aren't much more and are valved specifically for our application.
02-02-2015, 02:02 PM
#5
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Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: California
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Maier Racing was started back in the day by his dad, Bill. Mike has been there for years obviously, primarily doing suspension stuff while his dad managed the fiberglass side of the business.
Mike recently left and started Mike Maier Inc., I think his plan is to focus specifically on suspension/chassis stuff.
Mike recently left and started Mike Maier Inc., I think his plan is to focus specifically on suspension/chassis stuff.
02-03-2015, 01:07 AM
#6
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Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: arizona
Posts: 1,398
jesus guys
ummm . . monster billy . . how much money do you have for this?
is there a reason you do not want the same tyoe shocks?
do you know your front spring rate?
what do you like about your current shocks?
what do you not like about your currect shocks?
do you drive the car hard?
kyb also makes moderately firm shocks called gas adjust for $35.00 each . . these are noticeably firmer than the gr2 but not as firm as a bilstein or koni.
viking shocks have adjustable rebund and compression damping for $180 each.
you can get the jri shock that were mentioned starting at around $260.00 each.
ummm . . monster billy . . how much money do you have for this?
is there a reason you do not want the same tyoe shocks?
do you know your front spring rate?
what do you like about your current shocks?
what do you not like about your currect shocks?
do you drive the car hard?
kyb also makes moderately firm shocks called gas adjust for $35.00 each . . these are noticeably firmer than the gr2 but not as firm as a bilstein or koni.
viking shocks have adjustable rebund and compression damping for $180 each.
you can get the jri shock that were mentioned starting at around $260.00 each.
02-03-2015, 08:47 AM
#7
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Goodyear, AZ
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Money is not an issue. Don't really care how much they cost.
I'm not opposed to going with the same shocks. They ride okay.
I'm pretty sure I have the 620pound 1inch drop springs. They may 601s though.
The gr2 shocks that o am currently running have failed, they also seem a little bouncy. I guess I would like a little quicker rebound if it's possible to get without sacrificing quality.
I do drive it hard. Mostly on the street though. Although I am moving into a new home and it is less than a mile from a open to the public race coarse.
I'm not opposed to going with the same shocks. They ride okay.
I'm pretty sure I have the 620pound 1inch drop springs. They may 601s though.
The gr2 shocks that o am currently running have failed, they also seem a little bouncy. I guess I would like a little quicker rebound if it's possible to get without sacrificing quality.
I do drive it hard. Mostly on the street though. Although I am moving into a new home and it is less than a mile from a open to the public race coarse.
02-03-2015, 11:06 AM
#8
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Location: Hills of California
Posts: 5,208
35 buck KYBs are not near as nice as the M/B. Ive had both If I had known about the M/Bs at the time I could have saved a 140 bucks (35*4) Despite being significantly softer the M/B provide improvements in many areas. Choose the stiffness to match your spring rate. Im running 650lb I believe and went with their mid stiffness (Street) shock.
02-03-2015, 03:10 PM
#9
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Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: California
Posts: 10,468
They KYB Gas-A-Justs are total **** compared to the Bilstiens. They work, and provide decent cornering ability for the cost if the road is reasonably smooth, but they have terrible control and ride like **** on rough roads.
It's just a technology difference, the KYB's use a progressive valving which is old as dirt. The Bilstiens use an acceleration sensitive regressive valving, which is the most recent (aside from electromagnetic), so they're more expensive.
Shock motion causes the shock to get stiffer (more damping) with faster piston motion. In a progressive valve the rate of damping increases faster than the rate of piston motion (for example, twice the piston motion could create 4x the damping). In a regressive valve the rate of damping increases at a slower rate than the rate of piston motion (for example, 4x the piston motion creates only twice as much damping). Linear increases at the same rate (2x the piston motion creates 2x the damping). Progressive was the first valving type, and was frequently just holes drilled through the piston and nothing else; the oil in the shock had to be forced through the tiny holes. Linear was an improvement on progressive, and added in a valving mechanism that could throttle the rate the fluid passed through the holes in the piston. Regressive went beyond linear valving by changing the mechanism to provide further control of the flow such that the damping rate was reduced below that of a linear relationship. The valving evolved over time to respond to acceleration rather than simple velocity, so the damping rate changes not only with piston motion but with the rate the piston motion changes. The end result of that, is the current high tech hydraulic shocks which have incredibly fast response to changing conditions. You don't see too many linear shocks these days, since the companies who were producing them moved on to regressive.
The problem arises in how the shock cycles under a given condition. During cornering the rate of shock motion is relatively small and piston velocities are low (load transfer causes relatively little piston velocity/acceleration in the shock), so you want the shock stiff at low rates to reduce the vehicle rolling moment and inhibit load transfer. But when you hit bumps and holes on rough roads, the piston velocity and acceleration rates are very high, so you want the shock softer at this point.
With a progressive valve you end up with the opposite of the "ideal," the shock becomes much stiffer relative to higher piston motion, so the tire can't respond quickly enough to changing road surface conditions (the shock controls the rate of wheel response while the spring controls the total distance during that response...the shock is how fast, and the spring is how much). When the shock is too stiff, it prevents the spring from allowing the wheel to cycle the necessary distance to absorb a road surface change in the given amount of time; the shock resists rapid changes in spring compression/extension. The result is a shock that rides like **** on rough surfaces and transfers a lot of motion to the chassis, while causing the tire to have wildly fluctuating surface friction or even leave the road surface momentarily on rough roads. Because of this, there's a maximum limit that can be set in the valving and still be able to maintain control; and since the shock is relatively softer with lower rates of motion, cornering suffers as a result. You end up with a shock that allows for higher load transfer during cornering and less control as the road surface changes, but the shock is cheap to build. This is where you find shocks like the KYB's: the GR2 is softer and doesn't suffer from the ride quality problems, but lacks cornering capability, whereas the GAJ provides better cornering when the roads are smooth, but lacks control and ride quality if the road conditions are less than ideal. There's also a lot more physics involved in vehicle motion, but the end result is a shock that just doesn't work very well, but it's cheap.
In a regressive valve the situation is somewhat reversed. Because the damping increases at a lower rate than piston motion does (in some shocks quite a bit lower); you can valve the shock to be very stiff during low motion, while not getting that much stiffer under higher motion. The result is a shock that provides limited load transfer during cornering, but still cycles well under high piston motion encountered on rough roads. A good regressive valved shock will be a lot softer over rough roads but a lot stiffer under cornering, while having a much higher rate of damping response as conditions change. The shock ends up providing better cornering AND better ride/control, but is more expensive to build. This is where you find shocks like the Beilstiens (or the MUCH more expensive Penskes). What you end up with is a shock with better handling, better ride quality, better stability and better predictability...but with a "better" price.
In terms of the KYB for Classics Mustangs and the custom valved Bilsteins from Maier...there is absolutely no comparison. It's not even close. The Bilsteins are 3x the cost with 10x the performance, and are a MUCH better value (the performance per dollar is much higher). The only legitimate reason to not get the Bilsteins (or something similar) is because you can't afford the initial buy-in cost, or you weren't aware of them.
It's just a technology difference, the KYB's use a progressive valving which is old as dirt. The Bilstiens use an acceleration sensitive regressive valving, which is the most recent (aside from electromagnetic), so they're more expensive.
Shock motion causes the shock to get stiffer (more damping) with faster piston motion. In a progressive valve the rate of damping increases faster than the rate of piston motion (for example, twice the piston motion could create 4x the damping). In a regressive valve the rate of damping increases at a slower rate than the rate of piston motion (for example, 4x the piston motion creates only twice as much damping). Linear increases at the same rate (2x the piston motion creates 2x the damping). Progressive was the first valving type, and was frequently just holes drilled through the piston and nothing else; the oil in the shock had to be forced through the tiny holes. Linear was an improvement on progressive, and added in a valving mechanism that could throttle the rate the fluid passed through the holes in the piston. Regressive went beyond linear valving by changing the mechanism to provide further control of the flow such that the damping rate was reduced below that of a linear relationship. The valving evolved over time to respond to acceleration rather than simple velocity, so the damping rate changes not only with piston motion but with the rate the piston motion changes. The end result of that, is the current high tech hydraulic shocks which have incredibly fast response to changing conditions. You don't see too many linear shocks these days, since the companies who were producing them moved on to regressive.
The problem arises in how the shock cycles under a given condition. During cornering the rate of shock motion is relatively small and piston velocities are low (load transfer causes relatively little piston velocity/acceleration in the shock), so you want the shock stiff at low rates to reduce the vehicle rolling moment and inhibit load transfer. But when you hit bumps and holes on rough roads, the piston velocity and acceleration rates are very high, so you want the shock softer at this point.
With a progressive valve you end up with the opposite of the "ideal," the shock becomes much stiffer relative to higher piston motion, so the tire can't respond quickly enough to changing road surface conditions (the shock controls the rate of wheel response while the spring controls the total distance during that response...the shock is how fast, and the spring is how much). When the shock is too stiff, it prevents the spring from allowing the wheel to cycle the necessary distance to absorb a road surface change in the given amount of time; the shock resists rapid changes in spring compression/extension. The result is a shock that rides like **** on rough surfaces and transfers a lot of motion to the chassis, while causing the tire to have wildly fluctuating surface friction or even leave the road surface momentarily on rough roads. Because of this, there's a maximum limit that can be set in the valving and still be able to maintain control; and since the shock is relatively softer with lower rates of motion, cornering suffers as a result. You end up with a shock that allows for higher load transfer during cornering and less control as the road surface changes, but the shock is cheap to build. This is where you find shocks like the KYB's: the GR2 is softer and doesn't suffer from the ride quality problems, but lacks cornering capability, whereas the GAJ provides better cornering when the roads are smooth, but lacks control and ride quality if the road conditions are less than ideal. There's also a lot more physics involved in vehicle motion, but the end result is a shock that just doesn't work very well, but it's cheap.
In a regressive valve the situation is somewhat reversed. Because the damping increases at a lower rate than piston motion does (in some shocks quite a bit lower); you can valve the shock to be very stiff during low motion, while not getting that much stiffer under higher motion. The result is a shock that provides limited load transfer during cornering, but still cycles well under high piston motion encountered on rough roads. A good regressive valved shock will be a lot softer over rough roads but a lot stiffer under cornering, while having a much higher rate of damping response as conditions change. The shock ends up providing better cornering AND better ride/control, but is more expensive to build. This is where you find shocks like the Beilstiens (or the MUCH more expensive Penskes). What you end up with is a shock with better handling, better ride quality, better stability and better predictability...but with a "better" price.
In terms of the KYB for Classics Mustangs and the custom valved Bilsteins from Maier...there is absolutely no comparison. It's not even close. The Bilsteins are 3x the cost with 10x the performance, and are a MUCH better value (the performance per dollar is much higher). The only legitimate reason to not get the Bilsteins (or something similar) is because you can't afford the initial buy-in cost, or you weren't aware of them.
02-03-2015, 04:38 PM
#10
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Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Elk Grove, CA
Posts: 5,896
Gas-A-Justs really do ride like crap. I had them on my '67 for years, and while they provided great cornering stability, ride quality was terrible. It was so bad that the rear tires would often bounce and float over rough pavement when cornering. This was a problem for me living on the CA central coast, which has some epically poor road conditions (especially on the windy county roads, which are the ones you want to have fun with). Even a hint of throttle in a poorly-paved corner and the back end would bounce and slide.