water pump replacement suggestions
02-23-2015, 06:22 PM
#21
6th Gear Member
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: California
Posts: 10,468
I decided against one for now simply because of installation hassel
The 35gpm pumps are too long and will hit my electric fan
The 55gpm pumps should fit but are almost 600. I dont like the idea of having to deal with extra wire or a relay right now.
The reliability seems on par or better with a good mechanical setup. Hp gains are real probably about 5 to 7
I still may consider one later but im not at this time willing to do all the extra work to get my car to properly adsorb this new technology.
The 35gpm pumps are too long and will hit my electric fan
The 55gpm pumps should fit but are almost 600. I dont like the idea of having to deal with extra wire or a relay right now.
The reliability seems on par or better with a good mechanical setup. Hp gains are real probably about 5 to 7
I still may consider one later but im not at this time willing to do all the extra work to get my car to properly adsorb this new technology.
02-24-2015, 03:12 AM
#22
5th Gear Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Texas
Posts: 4,462
The reason is mostly that people don't like to change the way things are done, and shy away from something different or new. Mechanical is tried and true, and everyone used them before electric water pumps existed...electric comes along and everyone says "no one uses an electric on the street, so I won't either because there must be a reason." The reason is that everyone used mechanical because that's all there was, and electric comes along and no one switched.
A good electric pump will run on the street for a loooong time, and can last longer than a mechanical because there's no side load being put on a shaft/bearing, so you avoid a large point of mechanical failure. You have to get a good pump though, like a Meziere....and they're expensive. They rate them at 3,000+ hours of life though, so if you commute and drive around a city let's say at an average speed of 40mph....that's a minimum of 120,000 miles. That's minimum life expectancy, and if you commute on the highway a lot like I do where your average speed between highway and city driving works out to 60mph...that's 180,000 miles. In reality, I've seen some info that when Meziere tests their pumps, they frequently get 5,000hrs or more out of them, and the 3k hrs is just a guaranteed minimum; so at 5k hrs and 40mph your pump life is 200,000 miles, at 60mph it's 300,000 miles. That's a long, long time for a water pump to last.
My Meziere has been on the car for years, and still runs like it's brand new. I suspect it will last for years more...but it's also a $500 55gpm pump, so it's a matter of getting what you pay for. The initial buy in cost is high, plus you need to spend a bit of money on wiring up a relay as well as having an alternator that can handle the load (over 10amps constant draw just from the pump). As is typical of all things electric, it takes less power to make the electricity in the alternator to run the pump, than to run it mechanically; so it's more efficient and more reliable, and can eliminate a pulley if that's beneficial (they also sell versions with an idler pulley in place if you need it for belt routing). It's also large though, and I'm limited to low profile fans since the pump sticks out quite a bit. They also sell the motors separately if you need to replace one and the pump itself is fine.
A few factory cars are starting to go to electric water pumps, probably a result of the older "I ain't usin' me no durned electricemec pumpoolie doohickey" engineers retiring and newer engineers replacing them. You mostly see them on a smaller number of higher end cars though, some of the Audis and Mercedes models; but it is starting to becoming more common in other cars as well. With more cars running turbos and pushing for really high efficiency, an electric water pump can be made reasonably small and eliminate need for belt routing, making packaging easier in a new design shooting for a compact and lightweight powerplant.
A good electric pump will run on the street for a loooong time, and can last longer than a mechanical because there's no side load being put on a shaft/bearing, so you avoid a large point of mechanical failure. You have to get a good pump though, like a Meziere....and they're expensive. They rate them at 3,000+ hours of life though, so if you commute and drive around a city let's say at an average speed of 40mph....that's a minimum of 120,000 miles. That's minimum life expectancy, and if you commute on the highway a lot like I do where your average speed between highway and city driving works out to 60mph...that's 180,000 miles. In reality, I've seen some info that when Meziere tests their pumps, they frequently get 5,000hrs or more out of them, and the 3k hrs is just a guaranteed minimum; so at 5k hrs and 40mph your pump life is 200,000 miles, at 60mph it's 300,000 miles. That's a long, long time for a water pump to last.
My Meziere has been on the car for years, and still runs like it's brand new. I suspect it will last for years more...but it's also a $500 55gpm pump, so it's a matter of getting what you pay for. The initial buy in cost is high, plus you need to spend a bit of money on wiring up a relay as well as having an alternator that can handle the load (over 10amps constant draw just from the pump). As is typical of all things electric, it takes less power to make the electricity in the alternator to run the pump, than to run it mechanically; so it's more efficient and more reliable, and can eliminate a pulley if that's beneficial (they also sell versions with an idler pulley in place if you need it for belt routing). It's also large though, and I'm limited to low profile fans since the pump sticks out quite a bit. They also sell the motors separately if you need to replace one and the pump itself is fine.
A few factory cars are starting to go to electric water pumps, probably a result of the older "I ain't usin' me no durned electricemec pumpoolie doohickey" engineers retiring and newer engineers replacing them. You mostly see them on a smaller number of higher end cars though, some of the Audis and Mercedes models; but it is starting to becoming more common in other cars as well. With more cars running turbos and pushing for really high efficiency, an electric water pump can be made reasonably small and eliminate need for belt routing, making packaging easier in a new design shooting for a compact and lightweight powerplant.
Last edited by tx65coupe; 02-24-2015 at 03:20 AM.
02-24-2015, 11:59 AM
#23
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: PA
Posts: 1
Odd that you're having repeated failures from these pumps. Was it a new pump, or a reman? The remans are A1 cardone and are pretty shoddy. Seals fail all the time, bearings fail. I hate the damn things and try very hard not to sell them. The new ones are ASC (Airtex) and are pretty good quality. Having sold multiple brands, I'd say they're better than GMB (who make the Gates pumps that Napa sells), and far better than the new Cardone units.
If you really want an aluminum pump, I've had good luck with my Weiand aluminum unit. It was something like $70 and is still working great after 10 years. I went with aluminum for pure weight savings. Between my aluminum water pump, intake, and heads, I've probably shaved a good 100+lbs off the engine.
If you really want an aluminum pump, I've had good luck with my Weiand aluminum unit. It was something like $70 and is still working great after 10 years. I went with aluminum for pure weight savings. Between my aluminum water pump, intake, and heads, I've probably shaved a good 100+lbs off the engine.
Can you send me a private message with your contact information? Our Tech team and Customer Satisfaction department would like to learn more about the issues you have experienced with our Water Pumps. Thanks!
02-24-2015, 01:03 PM
#24
Gentleman's Relish
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: AZ
Posts: 13,090
There are several advantages to electric pumps including, they provide the same volume of flow regardless of engine speed. That's important because it keeps the engine temp more stable which translates to better engine reliability. You get less parasitic loss from an electric than a mechanical one including the fact that on an older fan clutch style cooling setup is EXTREMLY inefficient and further increases that drag.
I agree change for the sake of change is not a good enough reason but, this change would be a good one to consider if you ever need to change out a pump..
On a side note, do you run an electric fan or mechanical (fan Clutch) type setup on your car? Why? Other than keeping it that way for restoration purposes, I can't think of a single advantage that a mechanical fan setup has over the electric one.
Not trying to bag on you, just informing.
Last edited by Derf00; 02-24-2015 at 01:05 PM.
02-24-2015, 02:30 PM
#25
6th Gear Member
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: California
Posts: 10,468
I'm not saying that there is anything that is that bad about them, since I've only seen them used on race setups. I have seen them fail in this application when not used that often though. I have seen more than a few issues with electric fans. An electric water pump just sounds like a nightmare to me. I just don't see any reason to switch to that style, especially if its not needed. I also see nothing to be gained by switching.
The main reasons to switch are efficiency and reliability. Going from a mechanical fan and pump to an electric fan and pump can free up a tremendous amount of power in some applications. Driving mechanical things with belts is actually terribly inefficient. Driving an alternator to make electricity to run electric fans and pumps consumes a lot less power. It's also more reliable, provided you use good quality parts. Fan clutches eventually fail, but a good electric fan motor should last the life of the vehicle.
Also, I wouldn't use what people do at the track as a gauge of anything. Ever. Unless they're either a professional race team, or the couple groups of guys that almost always win and almost never have problems. While a good portion of guys are doing things that work, and you can draw some generalities from it, the drag strips tend to be populated largely with local yokels that are brain dead. This is especially true of electrical things. On the FAST forums often people have some issue, and they swear up one side and down the other that they wired everything properly and it's all "correct." Only later you find out that **** is all ****ed up, things are wired wrong, incorrect relays are used, improper power sources, routing is wrong, wires are too small and so on. Sometimes people burn out their ECU's because of it, or the car just never ever runs right.
I wouldn't be surprised if the overwhelming majority of electric fan and pump failures on people's track cars is a result of ****ty wiring. DC electrical devices HATE running at low voltage, and it will destroy them incredibly fast by burning them up. A device wants power (watts or volt-amps, literally just volts x amps), so if you have screwy wiring that's too small for instance or that has a bad ground (probably the single most common problem of any electrical device on a car is a bad ground), the motor that's trying to get power will just draw more amps at lower voltage. This is a result of how motors/inductors work, voltage = motor speed, lower voltage = lower speed and the lower the speed of the motor the higher current draw becomes. At 0rpm motor speed you have stall torque, where current draw is at it's highest and sometimes approaches infinity (this is where inrush current comes from when a device is stationary and first turned on). This is why different motors are designed to operate at different voltages. Since amps = heat, when a motor starts drawing high current at low voltage to get the power it needs, the heat breaks down the super thin insulation on the motor coil winding wire, and the magnetic field goes to **** in a hurry. Then the motor fails. Show me someone who had an electric fan or pump fail after limited operation, and I'll show you either a really ****ty quality product, or something that was wired/powered incorrectly.
02-24-2015, 02:50 PM
#26
4th Gear Member
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: arizona
Posts: 1,398
.
wow...
the MAIN reason to switch to an electric pump are less horsepower loss . . thats it. period.
there is NO other really good reason to switch to one.
if have never been unable to make any engine run a t stat temp.
the horsepower robbing fan blade was been used since the very first car was made . . i think that they have proven themselves to be effective ober the last 297 years.
obviously some engines that once had 200 hp now have 400 hp and thin cylinder walls from being bored and generate more heat due to the longer stroke and increased rod to crank ratio and so on, but i still have never had a need for a fancy, expensive electric pump.
this being said, i have had need for a taurus or contour electric fan on occasion.
do i think they are cool? . . yes.
do i hate them? . . no.
do i think they have a place somewhere? . . yes.
.
wow...
the MAIN reason to switch to an electric pump are less horsepower loss . . thats it. period.
there is NO other really good reason to switch to one.
if have never been unable to make any engine run a t stat temp.
the horsepower robbing fan blade was been used since the very first car was made . . i think that they have proven themselves to be effective ober the last 297 years.
obviously some engines that once had 200 hp now have 400 hp and thin cylinder walls from being bored and generate more heat due to the longer stroke and increased rod to crank ratio and so on, but i still have never had a need for a fancy, expensive electric pump.
this being said, i have had need for a taurus or contour electric fan on occasion.
do i think they are cool? . . yes.
do i hate them? . . no.
do i think they have a place somewhere? . . yes.
.
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