Carb'd/pushrod vs. Coyote
#1
Carb'd/pushrod vs. Coyote
I've been reading...and reading...but so far have yet to find a concise description outlining the pros of the modern fuel injected, OHC engine vs. carbureted, pushrod engines.
i.e. what does the naturally aspirated Coyote do better than an modern NA 351W?
I'm guessing that the Coyote's Ti-VCT also plays here.
Anyway, it seems the 351W variants produce great numbers, including huge amount of torque throughout RPM range, albeit at lower RPMs.
So if I had the choice why wouldn't I want a carb'd pushrod engine vs. the Coyote?
Thanks!
i.e. what does the naturally aspirated Coyote do better than an modern NA 351W?
I'm guessing that the Coyote's Ti-VCT also plays here.
Anyway, it seems the 351W variants produce great numbers, including huge amount of torque throughout RPM range, albeit at lower RPMs.
So if I had the choice why wouldn't I want a carb'd pushrod engine vs. the Coyote?
Thanks!
#2
i.e. what does the naturally aspirated Coyote do better than an modern NA 351W?
I'm serious. the Coyote makes 420 horsepower from 5.0 liters. It makes 420 hp all day, every day. It idles smoothly, has great throttle response across most of its RPM range, and has a fairly broad torque curve.
a 420 hp carbed 351W (5.8 liters) would need a hot cam and probably a single plane intake, so it would barely idle at all, would have little low-end pull, and would be a huge pain in the *** to drive on the street. oh, and if you have power brakes you'd probably need an auxiliary vacuum pump to make up for the lack of manifold vacuum. nobody would put up with a rough idle like
Last edited by jz78817; 07-26-2014 at 09:05 AM.
#3
Hi JZ,
Thanks for your reply and video.
Sincere question: So the crate engines from Ford can't achieve their rated numbers in a streetable manner?
That seems odd but maybe true. I wouldn't know. I've never driven anything other than the 302 and the Modulars.
The HP achievable with the Coyote from Ford is fine by me... the Coyote Aluminator XS is rated North of 500 HP but the downer is torque... 386 ft lbs.
I'm more concerned with torque.
Thanks again!
Thanks for your reply and video.
Sincere question: So the crate engines from Ford can't achieve their rated numbers in a streetable manner?
That seems odd but maybe true. I wouldn't know. I've never driven anything other than the 302 and the Modulars.
The HP achievable with the Coyote from Ford is fine by me... the Coyote Aluminator XS is rated North of 500 HP but the downer is torque... 386 ft lbs.
I'm more concerned with torque.
Thanks again!
Idle.
I'm serious. the Coyote makes 420 horsepower from 5.0 liters. It makes 420 hp all day, every day. It idles smoothly, has great throttle response across most of its RPM range, and has a fairly broad torque curve.
a 420 hp carbed 351W (5.8 liters) would need a hot cam and probably a single plane intake, so it would barely idle at all, would have little low-end pull, and would be a huge pain in the *** to drive on the street. oh, and if you have power brakes you'd probably need an auxiliary vacuum pump to make up for the lack of manifold vacuum. nobody would put up with a rough idle like
in a modern car.
I'm serious. the Coyote makes 420 horsepower from 5.0 liters. It makes 420 hp all day, every day. It idles smoothly, has great throttle response across most of its RPM range, and has a fairly broad torque curve.
a 420 hp carbed 351W (5.8 liters) would need a hot cam and probably a single plane intake, so it would barely idle at all, would have little low-end pull, and would be a huge pain in the *** to drive on the street. oh, and if you have power brakes you'd probably need an auxiliary vacuum pump to make up for the lack of manifold vacuum. nobody would put up with a rough idle like
#4
So the crate engines from Ford can't achieve their rated numbers in a streetable manner?
I'm more concerned with torque.
When you have fuel injection, variable cam timing, and variable intake manifold geometry, the sky is the limit.
The HP achievable with the Coyote from Ford is fine by me... the Coyote Aluminator XS is rated North of 500 HP but the downer is torque... 386 ft lbs.
actually, put it this way:
2012 5.0 Mustang: 412hp, 390 lb-ft
2012 F-150 5.0: 360hp, 380 lb-ft
Aluminator XS: 500hp, 386 lb-ft.
Kind of interesting, eh? They all make about the same peak torque. The key difference is in how the engines are tuned; e.g. where in the RPM range those peaks happen. The F-150 makes that 380 lb-ft at a lot lower RPM than the other two, so the peak hp is a lot lower at 360.
Last edited by jz78817; 07-26-2014 at 05:09 PM.
#6
Keep in mind the "351" crate motors offered by Ford Racing Parts are actually punched out to 427 cu. in. but yeah, they have aggressive cams and the "recommended intake" Edelbrock Super Victor is single-plane. Single plane intakes are generally used for mid- to top-end power, and you trade off low end.
I know that the Coyote is probably enough HP and Torque but you know how it is...if we were all satisfied then there would never be a supercharger sold.
I just prefer NA vs FI but want more torque and would like to do something fun like run Carb'd engine in my S197.
#7
Ahh, bummer. I'm looking to keep low to mid torque...basically a big fat torque curve.
I know that the Coyote is probably enough HP and Torque but you know how it is...if we were all satisfied then there would never be a supercharger sold.
I just prefer NA vs FI but want more torque and would like to do something fun like run Carb'd engine in my S197.
I know that the Coyote is probably enough HP and Torque but you know how it is...if we were all satisfied then there would never be a supercharger sold.
I just prefer NA vs FI but want more torque and would like to do something fun like run Carb'd engine in my S197.
Oh yeah I forgot to mention: Nice Notchback! I dig the 408. Is this yours?
#8
Well, the power is in the heads basically.
The Coyote has a DOHC and it's a huge advantage over the old school 351.
But despite that, the 351 has the extra cubic inches and with good aftermarket flowing heads like AFR or Trick Flow (185cc) and good intake like an air gap or Victor Junior Edelbrock with matching roller cam you will match the Coyote hp and have more torque without going for a stroker kit.
Now a well built 408 out of a 351 block will spank the Coyote mill with no problems and still be easy to drive on the streets.
So OP, if you're looking for good torque naturally aspirated, the 351 will be better but make sure your State doesn't have the yearly inspection.
The Coyote has a DOHC and it's a huge advantage over the old school 351.
But despite that, the 351 has the extra cubic inches and with good aftermarket flowing heads like AFR or Trick Flow (185cc) and good intake like an air gap or Victor Junior Edelbrock with matching roller cam you will match the Coyote hp and have more torque without going for a stroker kit.
Now a well built 408 out of a 351 block will spank the Coyote mill with no problems and still be easy to drive on the streets.
So OP, if you're looking for good torque naturally aspirated, the 351 will be better but make sure your State doesn't have the yearly inspection.
#9
Well, the power is in the heads basically.
The Coyote has a DOHC and it's a huge advantage over the old school 351.
But despite that, the 351 has the extra cubic inches and with good aftermarket flowing heads like AFR or Trick Flow (185cc) and good intake like an air gap or Victor Junior Edelbrock with matching roller cam you will match the Coyote hp and have more torque without going for a stroker kit.
Now a well built 408 out of a 351 block will spank the Coyote mill with no problems and still be easy to drive on the streets.
The Coyote has a DOHC and it's a huge advantage over the old school 351.
But despite that, the 351 has the extra cubic inches and with good aftermarket flowing heads like AFR or Trick Flow (185cc) and good intake like an air gap or Victor Junior Edelbrock with matching roller cam you will match the Coyote hp and have more torque without going for a stroker kit.
Now a well built 408 out of a 351 block will spank the Coyote mill with no problems and still be easy to drive on the streets.
My Mustang turns 7 this year so I think I will have to get it smogged. I believe new cars are exempt for the first 6 yrs.
All of this seems to add up to why superchargers are so popular.