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-   -   Is a 351c any good? (http://mustangforums.com/forum/motor-swap-section/712287-is-a-351c-any-good.html)

philly4lyfe 07-27-2014 05:12 PM

Is a 351c any good?
 
There's a guy selling a 351c locally. It's already rebuilt and converted to a roller just needs reassembly. He has all upgraded parts although I'm not sure specifically (I know that will matter some). He's asking 2500.

Is this a good deal or should I have my 1978 351 windsor rebuilt and converted to a roller for around the same price? What is the difference between the two? I hear Cleveland parts are more expensive and harder to find.

jsimmonstx 07-27-2014 05:29 PM

A Cleveland will make it harder to find headers. Stick with the Windsor.

philly4lyfe 07-27-2014 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jsimmonstx (Post 8412648)
A Cleveland will make it harder to find headers. Stick with the Windsor.

Thanks

bluebeastsrt 07-27-2014 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by philly4lyfe (Post 8412643)
There's a guy selling a 351c locally. It's already rebuilt and converted to a roller just needs reassembly. He has all upgraded parts although I'm not sure specifically (I know that will matter some). He's asking 2500.

Is this a good deal or should I have my 1978 351 windsor rebuilt and converted to a roller for around the same price? What is the difference between the two? I hear Cleveland parts are more expensive and harder to find.

The Cleveland makes a lot more power than a winsor. Parts aren't that hard to find.

philly4lyfe 07-27-2014 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluebeastsrt (Post 8412680)
The Cleveland makes a lot more power than a winsor. Parts aren't that hard to find.

Why is this? I thought the difference was limited to manufacture location and steel composition. Are they different designs as well?

bluebeastsrt 07-27-2014 10:16 PM

The Cleveland is a big block. The Windsor is a small block. There is quite a few differences other than their state of origin. This is a copy and paste from another sight but if you do a quick search the differences are plentiful. If your budget is your limiting factor the Winsor Small block will be cheaper to build. If your looking for max power between the two I believe the Cleveland will be the way to go. A quick summit racing search shows that part like heads, cam, intake, and headers are all plentiful for the 351 Cleveland. I had a 71 Mach 1 with a 351 Cleveland it was an impressive car. I was a big fan of this car and the Windsor and Cleveland were both offered in the 71-73 Mach1. The Windsor was rated at 250HP and the Cleveland was rated at 330HP. Big difference! Notice the difference on the head design below. High flowing heads are where the power is at!

Anyway here are a few differences I quickly found on another sight.

The 351 Cleveland, on the other hand, belongs to Ford's 335 engine family. This thin-wall cast BIG SMALL BLOCK uses the smaller 14mm spark plugs, has a separate front cover (bolted to the block) housing the timing chain and routing water - so that water does not go through the intake manifold, features beefy main caps (wide enough to drill for 4-bolt mains), a poor oiling system, and uses different heads for 2V & 4V versions. The heads make all the difference and these fire breathing babies make this motor the legend it is. On the 4V, the valves are HUGE, measuring 2.19" intake and 1.7n" exhaust (don't remember exactly). Valves this large are only possible via a canted valve arrangement, forming what Ford refers to as a "poly-angle" combustion chamber. The valve covers are not straight - the front is flat and parallel to the ground, but a curve twists the rear parallel to the head. They are attached by 8-bolts and when removed, there is a 4 cast into the corner of the 4V and a 2 cast into the corner of the 2V (at least in 1970). The canted valves are the dead giveaway.

Now a 351 Windsor is really a slightly enlarged 289/302, as it's name implies it comes from Fords "Windsor" engine family (a.k.a. the 90-degree V engine family). The thin-wall cast SMALL BLOCK accepts regular sized spark plugs, uses a timing chain in the block, routes water through the intake manifold, features thin main-bearing caps, a very good oiling system, and uses the same heads for 2V & 4V versions. The heads are small, utilizing in-line valves with relatively small ports. The valves are 1.78" intake and 1.54" exhaust, i.e. the same size as a 289/302. The valve covers are straight (front to rear), attached by 5 bolts, and when removed you can see 351 cast in the lifter valley. The small side-by side (in-line) valves are the dead give-away.

jsimmonstx 07-28-2014 04:52 AM

The Cleveland's main journals are smaller, heads are different (valves are bigger and aren't inline like the Windsor), but can be bolted onto a Windsor motor and require a special intake. It's no longer necessary to use Cleveland heads on a Windsor, and in fact won't gain you anything compared to a modern aluminum Windsor head. The same bell housing is also used between a Windsor and Cleveland. Dart blocks (and I think FRPP Boss blocks) use the Cleveland main journals.

A big block is generally taller (from oil pan flange to deck) and wider (bore center-to-bore center).

A Cleveland isn't a "big block". Ford's big blocks were FE, FT, and MEL engines.

jz78817 07-28-2014 08:49 AM

you also have to make sure which heads it has if it's already "built." as has been said, the 2-bbl and 4-bbl/CJ engines have different heads from the factory; the 2-bbl engines had small ports, small valves, and a relatively "open" chamber with little squish area. 2V heads don't like compression ratios above roughly 9:1. The 4-bbl/CJ heads flow like crazy but you might not get the low-end response you want.

And if it's already "built," you have to make damn sure which heads it has. the aftermarket has made 4-bbl intake manifolds for 2-bbl engines, so you can't just assume it has 4-bbl heads just based on the carb (unless it still has the stock intake.)

and also make sure it isn't actually a 351M or 400, those things were lousy.

philly4lyfe 07-28-2014 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jz78817 (Post 8412812)
you also have to make sure which heads it has if it's already "built." as has been said, the 2-bbl and 4-bbl/CJ engines have different heads from the factory; the 2-bbl engines had small ports, small valves, and a relatively "open" chamber with little squish area. 2V heads don't like compression ratios above roughly 9:1. The 4-bbl/CJ heads flow like crazy but you might not get the low-end response you want.

And if it's already "built," you have to make damn sure which heads it has. the aftermarket has made 4-bbl intake manifolds for 2-bbl engines, so you can't just assume it has 4-bbl heads just based on the carb (unless it still has the stock intake.)

and also make sure it isn't actually a 351M or 400, those things were lousy.

He says it was originally a 2V but he planned to convert it to a 4V. He has id bored to a 358. How do I tell which model it is?

Here is a link to his craigslist posting:
http://atlanta.en.craigslist.org/nat...555254982.html

philly4lyfe 07-28-2014 11:21 AM

So after some research I see that it's a 1970 but I can't figure out how to decipher which actual model it is.


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