Two Dead, One Injured in Mustang Street Racing Incident Near LA
03-05-2015, 11:42 AM
#11
2nd Gear Member
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: AR
Posts: 236
I disagree with the murder versus manslaughter charge. This wasn't murder IMO.
All involved knew the risks sure, but the driver nor anyone else involved murdered anyone or had the intent to kill anyone. Murder means I intended to cause the death of another or should have known my actions would result in the death of another. Not "could" result, but "would" result. Since driving normally to work "could" result in the death of another it needs to be willful knowledge that proceeding will cause death.
They did however, through their negligent actions, cause the death of others, but they didn't intend for it. It wasn't reasonably expected that it would occur either as evidenced by all the bystanders. People don't "normally" line up for a chance to be killed so they didn't reasonably expect it would happen either. The possibility existed sure, but a reasonable person would believe any injuries would be confined to the drivers themselves.
I think manslaughter is more appropriate. Likely because it was illegal or just to send the message they up'd the charges. Hopefully they'll reduce them to a more appropriate level.
All involved knew the risks sure, but the driver nor anyone else involved murdered anyone or had the intent to kill anyone. Murder means I intended to cause the death of another or should have known my actions would result in the death of another. Not "could" result, but "would" result. Since driving normally to work "could" result in the death of another it needs to be willful knowledge that proceeding will cause death.
They did however, through their negligent actions, cause the death of others, but they didn't intend for it. It wasn't reasonably expected that it would occur either as evidenced by all the bystanders. People don't "normally" line up for a chance to be killed so they didn't reasonably expect it would happen either. The possibility existed sure, but a reasonable person would believe any injuries would be confined to the drivers themselves.
I think manslaughter is more appropriate. Likely because it was illegal or just to send the message they up'd the charges. Hopefully they'll reduce them to a more appropriate level.
Last edited by BlindGUYnAR; 03-05-2015 at 11:49 AM.
03-05-2015, 12:15 PM
#12
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Washington
Posts: 11
Carlos, it wasn't an accident, it was NEGLIGENCE. An accident is an unforeseen incident which could not reasonably be expected to take place. Street racing is known to be dangerous activity, and crashes are common. While it's rare for there to be fatalities, it can be expected to happen.
The arrestee is not believed to have been the driver, but unless he can make a case that the car was being used without his permission, he is as much at fault as the driver. ALL voluntary participants in an unlawful activity are considered equally responsible for everything that happens during or as a result of that activity. That means the drivers of both cars, the organizers, the spectators, EVERYONE. The only way the owner will get any breaks is if he RAPIDLY gives up the drivers.
Unfortunately for everyone else, this has once again aimed a critical spotlight at car crazies all over the country. I'm in Nevada, and my boss wants my guys to give "extra attention" to performance cars. For the next few weeks, it would be a really good idea for people to avoid anything that could be seen as aggressive driving, exhibition of speed, etc.
The arrestee is not believed to have been the driver, but unless he can make a case that the car was being used without his permission, he is as much at fault as the driver. ALL voluntary participants in an unlawful activity are considered equally responsible for everything that happens during or as a result of that activity. That means the drivers of both cars, the organizers, the spectators, EVERYONE. The only way the owner will get any breaks is if he RAPIDLY gives up the drivers.
Unfortunately for everyone else, this has once again aimed a critical spotlight at car crazies all over the country. I'm in Nevada, and my boss wants my guys to give "extra attention" to performance cars. For the next few weeks, it would be a really good idea for people to avoid anything that could be seen as aggressive driving, exhibition of speed, etc.
As such any damages, injuries or (as in this case) deaths are not accidents. They are deliberate acts.
And when anyone deliberately engages in any activity that results in the death of another, that person is guilty of a crime.
And as TfcCDR points out, even if the owner of that car was stupid enough to allow another person to get in it and drive it in an illegal street race, that person is just as culpable as if he had been at the wheel himself.
He enabled the person driving his car to commit a crime, and while that crime was being committed people died.
I'm not acting like anything kid. I've been driving longer than you have been drawing breath.
And I've been racing legally for just as long.
So I know "what's up".
^^^ What he said. ^^^
The attorney said she didn't know who was behind the wheel and advised her client not to talk. Hardie said cellphone video shows her client standing on the street between the two vehicles at the starting line.
3 pictures and full article
.
I truly hope she fails at her endeavor.
OF COURSE the legal beagle wants him to keep quiet -- that's the job of the defense attorney, to keep her client from digging himself a deeper hole.
However, in this case, there's pretty much nothing that he can say to make the hole any deeper than it already is. No doubt she will tell the jury the same things that Cubano is saying. No doubt it won't do any good. His only hope is to cooperate, at least to the point where she can tell the jury that her client helped get it all cleared up.
What he wants is to be seen as a victim himself ("it was MY CAR that the guy crashed!") rather than a conspirator ("I ain't tellin' you nothin'"). At best, he may be able to get somewhere between the two, but you can bet that the County Attorney has handed this to the top prosecutor, simply because of the media attention.
I can understand why people like Cubano are trying to downplay this. Every single person was there because they chose to be where people were doing stupid things. They bear their share of responsibility. But there's plenty of blame to go around.
However, in this case, there's pretty much nothing that he can say to make the hole any deeper than it already is. No doubt she will tell the jury the same things that Cubano is saying. No doubt it won't do any good. His only hope is to cooperate, at least to the point where she can tell the jury that her client helped get it all cleared up.
What he wants is to be seen as a victim himself ("it was MY CAR that the guy crashed!") rather than a conspirator ("I ain't tellin' you nothin'"). At best, he may be able to get somewhere between the two, but you can bet that the County Attorney has handed this to the top prosecutor, simply because of the media attention.
I can understand why people like Cubano are trying to downplay this. Every single person was there because they chose to be where people were doing stupid things. They bear their share of responsibility. But there's plenty of blame to go around.
I disagree with the murder versus manslaughter charge. This wasn't murder IMO.
All involved knew the risks sure, but the driver nor anyone else involved murdered anyone or had the intent to kill anyone. Murder means I intended to cause the death of another or should have known my actions would result in the death of another. Not "could" result, but "would" result. Since driving normally to work "could" result in the death of another it needs to be willful knowledge that proceeding will cause death.
They did however, through their negligent actions, cause the death of others, but they didn't intend for it. It wasn't reasonably expected that it would occur either as evidenced by all the bystanders. People don't "normally" line up for a chance to be killed so they didn't reasonably expect it would happen either. The possibility existed sure, but a reasonable person would believe any injuries would be confined to the drivers themselves.
I think manslaughter is more appropriate. Likely because it was illegal or just to send the message they up'd the charges. Hopefully they'll reduce them to a more appropriate level.
All involved knew the risks sure, but the driver nor anyone else involved murdered anyone or had the intent to kill anyone. Murder means I intended to cause the death of another or should have known my actions would result in the death of another. Not "could" result, but "would" result. Since driving normally to work "could" result in the death of another it needs to be willful knowledge that proceeding will cause death.
They did however, through their negligent actions, cause the death of others, but they didn't intend for it. It wasn't reasonably expected that it would occur either as evidenced by all the bystanders. People don't "normally" line up for a chance to be killed so they didn't reasonably expect it would happen either. The possibility existed sure, but a reasonable person would believe any injuries would be confined to the drivers themselves.
I think manslaughter is more appropriate. Likely because it was illegal or just to send the message they up'd the charges. Hopefully they'll reduce them to a more appropriate level.
I hope the kid gets the maximum penalty.
Maybe it will deter other morons from going out and endangering the lives of themselves and others.
As for the fact that "People don't 'normally' line up for a chance to be killed", that is true. But I think that if they could foresee the potential risks it is likely they would find better things to do with their evening.
Even when people attend organized racing events there are deaths as the result when the drivers of cars lose control.
But in those venues there are measures in place to (hopefully) prevent injury or loss of life.
03-05-2015, 12:35 PM
#13
I said to stop pretending like u know what happened, since u aren't even from around here.. And kid? Please unless ur a granpa, in which case I suggest u take ur cholesterol pills and watch ur diet instead of racing.
Agree with blindguynar, he did not intend to kill anyone, he's just young and made a
Mistake, everyone here is acting like they have never gone over the speed limit. Anyways best of luck and hope no1 has to go thru what he's going thru.
Agree with blindguynar, he did not intend to kill anyone, he's just young and made a
Mistake, everyone here is acting like they have never gone over the speed limit. Anyways best of luck and hope no1 has to go thru what he's going thru.
03-05-2015, 06:28 PM
#15
2nd Gear Member
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: NV
Posts: 219
CPC 187: "187. (a) Murder is the unlawful killing of a human being, or a
fetus, with malice aforethought."
Under CPC 188, malice can be express or implied. Implied malice is "when no considerable provocation appears, or when the circumstances attending the killing show an abandoned and malignant heart" -- that is, during the commission of a crime. There is a whole stack of crimes on this guy, from street racing to reckless operation to leaving the scene and flight to avoid prosecution. That enables prosecution as homicide.
Manslaughter is death resulting from accident, misadventure, or other event in which which injury or death could not be reasonably expected to occur.
It is entirely possible that this will go to court as homicide, as an example for others.
Originally Posted by CubanoGT
hope no1 has to go thru what he's going thru.
Two people are DEAD because of what he did (that is, letting his car be used in a street race). I care a whole lot more about them and their friends and family than I do about a guy who was in the direct chain of causality because he was stupid.
03-05-2015, 08:23 PM
#16
2nd Gear Member
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: AR
Posts: 236
TfcCDR I certainly see and respect your postion. As I knew there would differing views I was sure to say it was my opinion.
I'll be keen to watch to future of the case. As with everything some will feel justice was served while others believe it wasn't or was too severe. Thankfully we aren't involved and have the luxury to choose sides.
I'll be keen to watch to future of the case. As with everything some will feel justice was served while others believe it wasn't or was too severe. Thankfully we aren't involved and have the luxury to choose sides.
If this were just some ratracer who lost control and hit, say, a bus stop, that COULD be manslaughter. These deaths, however, occurred during and as a direct result of criminal activity, and that's murder (or, more precisely, homicide due to negligence).
CPC 187: "187. (a) Murder is the unlawful killing of a human being, or a
fetus, with malice aforethought."
Under CPC 188, malice can be express or implied. Implied malice is "when no considerable provocation appears, or when the circumstances attending the killing show an abandoned and malignant heart" -- that is, during the commission of a crime. There is a whole stack of crimes on this guy, from street racing to reckless operation to leaving the scene and flight to avoid prosecution. That enables prosecution as homicide.
Manslaughter is death resulting from accident, misadventure, or other event in which which injury or death could not be reasonably expected to occur.
It is entirely possible that this will go to court as homicide, as an example for others.
HE wouldn't have to go through with it if he hadn't been stupid.
Two people are DEAD because of what he did (that is, letting his car be used in a street race). I care a whole lot more about them and their friends and family than I do about a guy who was in the direct chain of causality because he was stupid.
CPC 187: "187. (a) Murder is the unlawful killing of a human being, or a
fetus, with malice aforethought."
Under CPC 188, malice can be express or implied. Implied malice is "when no considerable provocation appears, or when the circumstances attending the killing show an abandoned and malignant heart" -- that is, during the commission of a crime. There is a whole stack of crimes on this guy, from street racing to reckless operation to leaving the scene and flight to avoid prosecution. That enables prosecution as homicide.
Manslaughter is death resulting from accident, misadventure, or other event in which which injury or death could not be reasonably expected to occur.
It is entirely possible that this will go to court as homicide, as an example for others.
HE wouldn't have to go through with it if he hadn't been stupid.
Two people are DEAD because of what he did (that is, letting his car be used in a street race). I care a whole lot more about them and their friends and family than I do about a guy who was in the direct chain of causality because he was stupid.
03-05-2015, 10:19 PM
#17
2nd Gear Member
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: NV
Posts: 219
Really, the only opinion that counts is that of the jury. I expect the lawyer to do everything she can to keep this away from one, so the question is how angry the County Attorney is over this (or how much pressure he gets from the public and local leaders). That will determine what sort of plea deal he's willing to accept -- or if he takes one at all. He's got an excellent case for everything up to the homicide charge, which is a little iffy for a jury to accept (just as it was for you).
I don't have a dog in this fight. I don't even know anyone who DOES. But I will say that anyone reading this really really really doesn't want to be street racing anytime soon. What would have gotten a heavy citation last month will likely get someone slightly arrested this month, car impounded, and the chance to make friends with a bail bondsman.
03-06-2015, 02:45 PM
#18
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Washington
Posts: 11
I know what you said.
I was born in Corona, and lived in San Pedro and Long Beach.
Name calling.
Nice.
Your response clearly indicates your lack of maturity.
I was born in Corona, and lived in San Pedro and Long Beach.
Nice.
Your response clearly indicates your lack of maturity.
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