Pipes, Boost & JuiceTalk about Exhaust, Nitrous, Blowers, Turbos, Superchargers... whatever makes you go faster! Sponsored by CARiD
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Helo to all. I've book my mustang into chandlers in London Ont for March 3rd/07 for a supercharger install. a vortec.We haven't discussed the various types/brands yet either. what is the take here, what's the best all around brand?Vortec coz of ease of install?.I'm paying $4500.00 for out the door (dyno)rear wheel hp of 400-425 hp.this sound cash wise ok? thank you in advance. great site by the way.
Hey Thor! I'm in London too. Is that price in CAD? If so where did you pick it up and is that price installed by John too?
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well i have no idea about the late-to-resto stangs but you just can't beat a REAL 8-71 detriot blower (not a weind or aftermarket but an 8-71 of a real dertiot deisel motor) on a classic with one of the following motors 352, 390#, 427+/, 428+/, 429*+/, and 460
+ = cobra jet
/ = super cobra jet
* = boss
# = hi-po
they don't call me the cajun billybob for nuttin
i just got my vortech v2 sq today i will start putting it in on tuesday will probally take a couple of days because i work 300 hours a month and i have to send ecu to vortech for there chip. i already have a diablosport but will dyno it with that after i get an innercooler for now i will run stock pulley
2000gt vortech v2 sq,tremec tko, 3.73's,brand new 310 cubic inch,all forged,ported heads,crower cams,will post dyno #s soon
Thanks for the useful info. I'm wanting to supercharge my '07 Shelby GT (4.6) and am trying to decide between a Roush 2300 TVS (510 -700hp) and Edelbrock E-Force (466hp). Despite lower HP I'm leaning towards the Edelbrock as its more efficient and seems technologically advanced. Any advice welcome!
I am looking into buying a Supercharger for my 2001 GT, does anyone have any opinions on what kind would be the best. My price range sits around $4000-$5000, and i'm looking for a lot of power to get out of it. If there is anything that anyone may have for me please let me know. Thanks.
The ProCharger-D on my Livernois 298ci Stroker in my 05 Roush sounds nice but I didn't understand the rpm needs of Centrifigal S/C's and since I don't run at higher rpm's I'd now rather go with a Kenne Bell type for more "grunt" at lower rpm's...ya' pays your money and takes your choice!
If the engine is ailing or high in mileage and is using oil, then the supercharger is only going to help your engine find an early grave."
With today's kits, you can easily add 100-150 hp to a stock engine, and anytime you take a component and push it that far past the factory-designed capabilities there is a chance of failure. When it comes to building and tuning your own supercharged car, you must carefully select each piece of the puzzle. This includes the short-block, the heads, the fuel system, and don't forget the fuel management system, the type of gaskets, the intake manifold, ignition and, of course, the type of fuel.
Still, what people fail to realize is that despite the power increase, most problems come from a poor tune-up. In addition, remember that as horsepower increases there is additional heat as a result. It takes extra air and fuel to make extra power and burning extra fuel means more heat. Compressing the air also creates heat, and the stock 5.0 or 4.6 engine was not originally designed to dissipate all that extra heat, so you have to manage it properly. Mismanaging it leads to problems and one example of mismanaging is beating the snot out of your supercharged engine with it cooking hot. Another is turning up the boost without re-tuning.
"Tuning is a big thing," adds Best. "Assuming the engine is healthy and the kit has been installed correctly, the number one killer of most supercharged applications is bad tuning. Bad tuning can be anything from improper air/fuel ratio, too much or not enough ignition timing, too much or not enough fuel pressure, improper FMU, and incorrect spark plugs. Lastly is boost pressure. It's really easy to get your first supercharger and get it installed and running and have a lot of fun, only to find out that you can swap a pulley and get more boost. What you need to keep in mind is that adding boost means more airflow and that usually means more heat. And more heat requires more fuel and less timing. The bottom line is that all of the variables need to be addressed."
With this you can also see how the answer to the original question could also be no. A blower alone can't hurt the engine, because all it's doing is feeding in more air. In other words, it's the tune and the ability of the driver to pay attention and use the equipment in a mature fashion that will help longevity.
When it comes to the tune, care must be taken to ensure that the compressed air (read: boost) is matched with the correct ratio of fuel and the proper timing advance curve. Force-feeding the engine presents us with challenges that must be overcome in order to maintain good power, driveability and reliability. The most notable demon is detonation. By its nature, compressing air creates heat and this potentially results in engine-damaging detonation.
"We've worked with flame-front experts and we know that auto-ignition or detonation creates cylinder pressures that are up to 10 times that of normal combustion," stated Dan Jones of ATI/ProCharger. "Pre-ignition or unscheduled spark ignition occurs when the piston is traveling up the bore and is not yet at the point for the scheduled ignition but ignition occurs without the spark plug firing."
When this occurs, the mixture begins to burn prematurely and cylinder pressure skyrockets. The piston is still on the way up, but it's fighting the cylinder pressure that's not supposed to be present. Then, the spark plug fires and the scheduled flame front begins. Ultimately the two flame fronts collide and the sound is heard as a knocking or pinging, i.e. detonation. This not only creates tremendous pressure in the cylinder, but also creates unwanted harmonics throughout the engine. And over time (sometimes a really, really short time) these harmonics cause major engine parts to fail. But even when pistons or head gaskets do survive detonation, the related effect places severe load on the crankshaft and the bearings, as well as the rings and the block.
According to Jones, the problems associated with detonation far exceed the alleged problem of extra load on the engine imposed from simply making extra horsepower and torque.
"When the engine is running properly there is a very short period in degrees of crankshaft rotation where big force is applied to the pistons. This occurs during the power stroke and for a short time just after the mixture is combusted as the piston crosses TDC," said Jones. "It's important to note that with forced-induction engines there is less total peak rod/piston/crank load, but the duration of the power application is longer than with naturally aspirated engines. This means the force is being applied closer to the point at which the crank nears the 90-degree angle and this means more torque can be applied."
Roots and Screws
There are three common types of superchargers (centrifugal, Roots and screw-type or twin-screw) and each one of them is designed to do the same thing--make boost. But while they all force air into the engine, they possess different characteristics.
Hot rodders are familiar with Roots-style blowers seen perched atop Pro Street or Top Fuel engines. Roots blowers have been around since the 1800s and they fall in the "positive displacement" or "fixed displacement" family. Twin-screw blowers are also positive-displacement blowers.
Positive-displacement superchargers are labeled as such because they move a fixed displacement of air per each revolution of the blower. As the rotors or lobes spin, a fixed amount of air is trapped and that air cannot reverse in flow. An increase or decrease in airflow through the blower will be noticed based on the position of the throttle, but once the air enters the blower and is sealed between the rotors and the case (or the screw lobes) the amount of air per revolution can't change.
On the other hand, a centrifugal blower can allow a backflow of air because the air is not sealed within the compressor at any point. It's also important, but not critical, to note that screw and centrifugal superchargers compress the air within their housings, whereas Roots blowers force air through the blower and the compressing is done in the manifold.
Each blower has a case, usually cast from aluminum, with a machined inside, which houses two (or three) rotors. The rotors will have either two or three lobes, and some units, like the Eaton blower found on the Lightning and Cobra, have the lobes twisted. Air is drawn in at one point and guided towards the rotors. The rotors accelerate the air towards the outlet, where it is carried and fed into the intake manifold.
The blower or compressor is attached to a plenum that serves as the intake manifold. There's usually a machined surface where the blower sits, a plenum and runners to supply the ports. In most cases, the ports are short, due to space limitations and because a long runner is just not necessary when you have boost pressure. Roots blowers do a tremendous job of making instant boost, thus filling the cylinders at low rpm and this helps to generate great throttle response and torque.
Disadvantages to this style of supercharger are that (in most applications) they sit atop the engine, which can create packaging or hood clearance problems and that they generate lots of heat. There's not much you can do to solve the clearance problem, but with the use of intercoolers, aftercoolers and heat exchangers, the issue of heat is not as prevalent.
"Roots blowers are good reliable units, but the twin-screw is a much more efficient design. And that's why Ford has gone to a twin-screw on the new GT," stated Jim Bell of Kenne Bell Inc.
A screw blower looks similar from the outside, but the internals are completely different. With a twin-screw there are male lobes that intermesh with female lobes. Both sets rotate inward and as air is drawn in it is compressed and "screwed" forward towards the front of the case. According to Bell, rotor speed can approach 24,000 rpm.
Bell also said that by design the Roots is about 30 percent less efficient. Therefore, it must be 30 percent larger to pump the same amount of air. And larger blowers take more energy to turn so there are greater parasitic losses and more heat.
Because of the way each of the three blowers arrives at making boost, there are great debates as to which system is more efficient. The generation and dissipation of heat within a blower system has to do with thermodynamics (the physics of relationships between heat and other forms of energy) and this is quite the complicated subject.
Any time you compress air its temperature rises. You can't avoid this--it's one of the laws of physics. You also have heat generated by the blower itself due to internal friction, or more technically, by the work necessary to get the air from its natural pressure up to the desired boost pressure.
For instance, heat is generated at the bearings, within the blower's internal drive system, by the drivebelt and even by the friction of the air flowing through the blower. Centrifugal blower manufacturers tell us these units tend to be the more efficient because they are not bolted directly to the intake, so less heat is transferred to the engine. They are also easier to intercool, and intercoolers are an important tool. Intercooling (or aftercooling) reduces the temperature of the intake air charge and allows tuners to dial in more boost pressure and more ignition timing without as much fear of detonation. Centrifugal Blowers
In direct contrast to the Roots or screw blower is the centrifugal supercharger. There is a huge difference between the designs of the two. Where the Roots and screw units are positive-displacement blowers, the centrifugal blower's displacement is not fixed.
Like their Roots cousins, centrifugal superchargers are also driven by the crankshaft, however, they are generally much smaller and are usually mounted at the front of the engine rather than on top (although there are some Roots blowers that are front-mounted and driven directly by the crank). This allows them to adapt easily to EFI engines because the owner can retain his or her complete throttle body and intake manifold system. In most cases, just the inlet tube (or system) needs to be modified.
The centrifugal housing is shaped similarly to a turbocharger and in place of rotors or screws, it uses an impeller (also similar to a turbo) to draw in air and direct it to the housing. "Centrifugal blowers are true compressors," stated Best. "As the supercharger draws in air it accelerates and compresses the air internally. The scroll collects the compressed air and forces it into the discharged tube and then into the intake manifold. A well designed compressor stage exhibits much higher efficiency than the Roots design, resulting in much greater net gains due to lower charge air temperature and parasitic loss," he added.
Centrifugal blowers accelerate the air due to centrifugal force, hence the name. The impeller wheel is driven by an internal transmission with a "step-up ratio" and a drive pulley system, therefore it can drive the impeller much faster than the actual engine rpm. Impeller speeds are generally in the range of 50,000-65,000 rpm.
"Centrifugal blowers take in air and the impeller carries or directs the air and accelerates it. It whips it up to speed dramatically, but the impeller doesn't compress the air or generate boost. The flow of air exits the impeller and enters a vaneless diffuser where it is straightened out and sent into the scroll. Air then slows down and pressure is created," explained Jones.
And since there are a virtually unlimited number of applications, blower manufacturers have developed a variety of housings and impeller types to suit the needs of everything from a stock 3.8- or 5-liter engine to a 6-second, 200-mph Pro racer. The size of the housing and the shape of the impeller blades (or fins) have a great affect on the boost curve and changes to the impeller can be made to fine tune this curve to maximize airflow and boost for a specific application.
If there is a downside to the centrifugal superchargers, it's that they rely on rpm to make boost and they give up low-rpm performance to the Roots and screw units in this department. Nevertheless, they are generally more efficient at making boost in the higher rpm ranges.
Today there is a huge number of blower kits available to Mustang and Lightning owners. The choices can be overwhelming, but we've found that picking the right blower requires nothing more than a little research on your part. The key to finding the best one for your combination is to select a unit that can supply the most efficient level of boost in the rpm range that you're building your engine for. In addition, consider the combination as a whole. For instance, heavier vehicles need more torque than lighter ones do and that's why the Eaton, Magnum Powers or Kenne Bell is the best choice for a 4,500-pound Lightning. But a Paxton, Powerdyne, ProCharger, Vortech may be the way to go for your 3,000-pound LX.
And lastly, remember that boost is awesome for a street-driven car and peak power numbers are important, but reliability and driveability should outweigh maximum power. We've seen too many people shoot for the moon, you know, for that last ounce of power and end up with a worthless pile of pistons, rods and crankshafts.
People often ask how long their stock short-block will last with a blower. To them, we point out our "Ice Box" '01 Mustang GT project car. It's had a Vortech SQ on it virtually since it was new. Thanks to a ported set of stock heads, Comp cams and a ported Bullitt intake, it now makes 542 rwhp and runs 11.2 at 126 on pump gas. It is driven daily year round on 93- or 94-octane fuel and has eclipsed 40,000 trouble-free miles on the untouched factory short-block.
Much of the credit has to go to its conservative JDM Engineering tune up. When tuning the car, JDM proprietor Jim D'Amore told us he could make more horsepower, but didn't feel comfortable going higher with the factory rods.
In other words, common sense should prevail. Always run good gas, keep a check on fuel pressure and timing and remember there's a time and a place to hold the gas to the floor.
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