Even so, I still can't understand how the FR500 does not uses a rear sway bar and also read that Rodeo doesn't too.

ORIGINAL: RodeoFlyer

Hi Jazzer,

Please do your research. Nothing is worse than when people give misinformation on this forum and all the others.

First -visit the GriggsRacing website. The cost for the street version of the SLA for the S197 chassis is $7,174.30. Add in sales tax if applicable, as well as shipping costs, and you are at 8k, as I am the one that stated it. For the road race version with rod ends, the cost shoots up to $10,186.26 .You will also notice that they havefinally recognized and adressed the desire for a strut front end, as they now have a Koni coilover setup, which at@ $1400 is stilla bit high for what you get, but it's good to see.

Second -I strongly urge you to drive a S197. They are completely different from the Fox/SN95 platform. I own both (93 Cobra). The fact that you neither own one nor have even driven one calls your credibility into question. The biggest problem with these cars is that too many people think that things that worked for the previous chassis carry over to this one which is far from the truth.

I'm not trying to be a ***** (which I tend to do a lot), but this forum contains the largest accumulation of accurate information of all the S197related forums. I would contend that most of us in here would strive to keep it that way.

ORIGINAL: Sleeper_08

It depends on how good the driver in the M3 is![/align][/align]I just got back from my first track day.Dunnville is a fairly complex track with an interesting mix of corners but not very high speeds - I got up to about 100mph or so on the front straight.[/align][/align]http://www.dunnvilleautodrome.com/images/track/stewartcircuitLABEL.pdf[/align][/align]It was a blast. When we arrived at the track it was cold and blowing. Temperature all day didn't get above 50 to 55. My brother drovefirstto learn the track as he had never been on it before. Then it was my turn and it started raining - lot's of fun and a good way to learn throttle control![/align][/align]The car ran well and my brother's overall response was 'very impressive'. During my session with him he managed to pass most everything, including a new Corvette. During my sessions most everything passed me, except for an M3 who waved me by! This really shows that driver skill/desire counts for more than a lot of mods.[/align][/align]One of my main goals while building the car was to make sure it was predicable and at the levelI was operating at found it didn't have any vices. My brother lost itcoming out of the Carousel corner and did a 360 into the grass. Fortunately everything was OK.[/align][/align]The D Specs are great - roll in tighten ,them down, and away you go. [/align][/align]The brakes never faded even though this track is hard on brakes - especially with a car as heavy as the S197 + SC.This was without the brake cooling ducts installed as the front tires are so large there is no room left for ducts. However I may have hard spotted the front rotors.[/align][/align]The Roush SC performed like a dream and isnice and linear.[/align][/align]Now to get more seat time - next stop Mosport GP circuit on June 25![/align] Car looks good, Sleeper, How's the wheel/tire combination working out? Any clearance issues? If I'm not mistaken, those rims are 45mm offset? Think 42mm would clear? (little more than 1/8" ?) Way to go, and thanks for the follow-up.

PS - here is a pic http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p...illeMay015.jpg

ORIGINAL: timothyrw

i've tried to avoid this thread but it won't go away...

first: i've never raced on a track. i have taken a 40-hour high-speed operations training course. i know, "whoopee"...but what matters most is i've actually driven a m3 (granted an e36 generation) and numerous other bmw's.

(oh yeah, i slept at a holiday inn before typing this and i do read a lot of car magazines. something about the opinion of the editors of every magazine, including professional drivers, and anindustry wide, well, awe, of bmw's handling performance, that re-enforces my own experience and thus leads me to some wild conclusions...)

now, i love my mustang. having said that, every time i drive a bmw i start running the numbers in my head on how to make it financiallypossible to own oneand every time it pains me to give up the keys...

some have posted videos of mustangs passing bmw's on the track... ok, i'm sure no one has ever seen a bmw pass a mustang on the track. (sarcasm)

i know, i know, "well, it was just to prove it is possible." well... duh!when i was 16 i took mymom's 87 chevy nova (basically a rebadged corolla) and beat people in street races because, being young and stupid, ididn't let off the pedal until i caught back up with them and passed them... (which is what i considered a win... and still do...)

how many times have you heard a driver in thewinner's circle say, "well, i knew i didn't have the fastest car, but..."

so in terms of racing (where i think we can all agree, and as some have already pointed out, the ability of the driver, and often times luck, is actually more important then the capability of the car) the question posed by the OP is really, well, somewhat naive. no offense, OP, keep reading if you are...

however, if you turn it into a talk about track or lap times, where we take two cars and take out the x-factor of the driver, which was my mindset from the get-go, thenthe questions posed by the OP become muchmore interesting.

that is to say, you could put me in a f1 car and put michael schumacher in a mustang and put us both on the nürburgring and i'm positive he will get the checker.

but the OP, from my interpretation,wasn't talking drivers. he was talking mustang vs m3/s4.

so how do you talk just cars? easy, you take out all the x-factors... the biggest being the driver.

also, the OP stated a "new m3". it is true what someone stated, the e46 generation of m3's were not extremely fast in terms of 0-60 and 1/4 mile times. with the new e90 it's a whole different ball game.

so it all boils down to this:

can a stock mustang compete with e46 m3s on a race track with a bunch of drivers with differing levels of skill? sure... duh, easy one. a modified mustang? even better.

but what about: same driver... stock mustangvs e46 m3? well, now that's a different story. i say m3 easily. mustang with modified suspension but no significant powertrain upgrades? probably still the m3.

can a modified mustang (modified as the OP listed and then some) compete with a e90 m3 given equally skilled drivers?not without expensive suspension/wheel/tire mods and notwithout forced induction.

if i'm an idiot please tell me so... (actually there's already aline for that, but the line for "why" is much shorter!)

ORIGINAL: steelcomp
The question was how much to "compete" with an M3 in the twisties. Not specified on a race track or the street, so a little vague, there. You make some good points, butI'm wondering if you've ever driven a well set up S197 Mustang? Hell, just throw some Konis and some PS2's on it and you're almost (90%) there. Funny thing is, the Mustang's front suspension is pretty much designed after the BMW. The big difference is the rear, where the BMW has IRS, and a well designed one at that. Having said that, if you gave me the difference in cost between an M3 and an S197GT and invested that in the GT, I'd return to you a car that would drive around the BMW and put change in your pocket. The biggest thing I love about beating an M (trashed an M5 just this AM) is the look on most M driver's faces as they get trounced by a lowly Mustang.
Next years M3 is making 400hp, but at the expense of doing it at over 8000rpm. That's rediculous for any regularly driven street car, and will seperate even further the guys driving BMR's for statusvs. the real drivers. AFAIC, BMW's are terribly over-rated, over priced, and typically maintenance and repair nightmares. I've beat the crap out of my 07 GTfor 55K mi with yet a single issue, other than my constant playing with the suspension and tweaking on the engine. We'll see what the reliability issues are with the new 400hp, 8000+rpm M3...and the price tag. What I will say is it's amazing how many 3 and 5series BMW's you see on the roads these days. What, are they giving those things away?? Personally, I'd much rather have an AMG.

ORIGINAL: timothyrw

one last thing.there is noshame to admit that the mustang is what it is! i know you are all handling freakson a mustang forum, but it's ok to admit that the mustang will just never have the handling feel, and will never have the ability to instill the feeling of confidence, that a $70k e90 bmw can... it's like to talk about how great the bmw is, is to somehow diminish the mustang...