azrampage

OK, I've been running a G Stock (Street Tire Class) 2007 Pony Package V-6 for about three years now. Has the 8x17 wheels and essentially the GT Suspension (springs, sway bars). Add to that Koni shocks, crash bolts, air cleaner element, and a Stillen 35mm 3 position front sway bar. Note that this package does NOT have a limited slip as the GT's do.

I've been trying to learn the handling characteristics of this car, but have struggled. I've done OK at times, but on all of my previous cars I've had greater success more quickly...... but this is a larger, heavier car than my Neons, MR-2's, 240SX's and the like. That, and also it seems to be "mushier" for me, as in, hard to get the "feel" of the tires limits, especially on turn in.

Before I've asked and been told to use the stock front bar (34mm for the Pony Pkg) or smaller for my car, and I've tried it both ways. Stock, as well as positions 1-2-3 on the Stillen, but course designs and speeds have added variables, as well as my inability to learn the nuances/feel of this car, so I'm still undecided, but mostly ....... confused.

Help.

So, I just went out and set the Stillen back to position #3 (full hard), tried it on my "unofficial test corners", and seems to me that it's easier to "feel" what the front tires are doing (I know this is not really an autocross setting).

Couple that with no limited slip....... could it be that for me and this car that the larger front bar might actually allow better turn in feel, as well as plant the rear tires on the open rear better?

Any and all thoughts and suggestions welcomed.

Rubrignitz

By increasing the front swaybar stiffness you're reducing front camber roll which will improve front grip and feel and increase rear grip so yes your turn-in feel will improve and plant the rear better.

The 'mushy' feel you mention is probably tire related. What tires are you running? Are you experiencing understeer (my guess since you battened down the front bar along with a stock GT rear bar)?

What springs are you running? Upgrading the stock springs would be a good idea. And whats a crash bolt? Camber bolts?

Sam Strano

The bar is adding front wheel rate. Of course that will quicken response (so will more shock damping fwiw). But it will also make the car understeer more too as you are increasing front wheel rate but not rear wheel rate.

It's all about balance and finding the trade-off that makes you happy. My bars are 35/22mm and 3 way adjustable. Normally we run full soft or middle on the front and middle on the rear bar for the best balance--but that is very very spring and tire dependent. And also dependent on how hard the car is actually driven. You can afford a lot more front bar on the road than while racing because you generally don't get right to the limit of adhesion (and therefore at the limit balance isn't a huge concern) on the road.

Rubrignitz

I've often wondered...and maybe you can help me/us understand this Sam, what the major concerns of a rear swaybar are for a solid rear axle car. I know the SRA has a great deal of roll resistance by design and the FR500 S197 race cars don't even employ a rear bar but rather coilovers. I assume they tune the car with springs and dampers and forgo the rear bar altogether.

And for the OP benefit, you would rather set the car up with proper springs/dampers for the car weight, handling traits and ONLY at that point use the swaybar setup for tuning under/oversteer correct?

It sounds, from the original questions that he is trying to tune the car's handling traits with the swaybar which should be an afterthought once the car is setup with proper springs and dampers.

jayel579

You could be fighting your driving abilities as well. Not to throw this off topic but this is something I have been battling this year. You could be too "sudden" with your hands on turn in. Now I am completely guessing here so follow me. When setup well these cars can turn in very well. If you are turning in to quickly you aren't letting the tires grab before they are ready to turn, youre just rolling onto the shoulder over heating them and not getting any more grip. You have to almost get lazy with your hands, like turn your hands in slowly in the begining once there is grip then you speed up or snap your hands through the turn. Look up Sam's runs and watch his hands especially through the slalom, he does it too. He has the benefit of being on very good rubber so its not as obvious. I've had a ton of people ride and instruct with me and they have all suggested the same thing. You might be slower in the beginning until you pick up this skill but it will help down the road if you are running in STX/U

Sam, if I am completely off on this please correct me, I could be saying it wrong.

Just a suggestion on my end.

gmoran1469

Sounds like it's the tires. You said you were running street tires, street legal, or street tires though. NT-01's are street legal but I wouldn't call them street tires.

If it's a normal performance street tire (NT555 or similiar) I would say it is your tires that cause that "squishy" feeling. As you pull around a corner the sidewalls flex.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfddsOd3jgE

Check out that video, granted that is a full on racer and as such is running low-pro slicks, but you get the idea from that video, the tires flex and that causes a squishy or spongy feeling with the steering.

My NT-01's, which are only 1" wider than my NT555's, make it feel like a different car.

azrampage

OK, allow me to clarify a few things to facilitate the discussion.

1. I'm using very good street tires, Dunlop Direzza 245x45x17. Pressures set about 32/32. Shows even temps across the tread. Nitto NT-05's 275x40x17 were no faster, nor were 255x40x17 Direzzas, all tried before.
2. I was trying the "soft front approach" with the Konis set at +1/2 front, +2 1/2 rear, sway bar at soft position or even the stock 34mm front sway.
3. Experience - Been doing this a long time, and have been very fast in a number of other cars (FWD and RWD). Spent years on "R" tires, past few years on street tires. Maybe I'm getting old? (naw).
4. Can't change springs or rear bar in G Stock class.
5. I equate "mushy" with poor turn in/plow . Hard for me to feel where the limit is.

I appreciate the discussion and ideas. This car is heavier than any of my many other toys, and seems like it's a struggle for me to learn it.

I'd love the front to turn in/bite upon lifting off the gas for a corner, then maintain angle with the gas pedal. Not found that yet. Do you guys brake entering the first part of corners?

Sam Strano

If you want turn in, you want more front shock... And you run a way bigger f/r split on pressures than I do as I'm around 5 psi different.

Basically you are going, IMHO the wrong way. Too much front bar, not enough front shock, not enough rear air probably. The lack of a diff sucks, not amount of front bar will fix that.

azrampage

Hmmmm......... Things to try next event. When Sam speaks, I listen.

I recently tried 2# higher in the rear, seemed to help one event and no effect the second. I'll try higher.

It's hard running seemingly the only S197 V-6 in autocrossing. Seems like there's very few others to network with.