looking for practical advice for brake upgrades
09-26-2010, 08:25 AM
#11
2nd Gear Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Irvine, CA
Posts: 164
If you have decided you wanted to go with a BBK and you have allocated the money would you go with the 6-piston or the 4-piston? Is there much of a difference between the StopTech and the Brimbo kits. I am going to be tracking the car a few times a month at Willow Springs and I want a BBK that will also work well for me on the street/back mountain roads.
If you have decided on a BBK and plan to run the car 15% of the time on the track what is the best setup if money were not an option. Removing the stock 19s have given me some room to add a BBK and that was one of the main reasons why I wanted them.
If you have decided on a BBK and plan to run the car 15% of the time on the track what is the best setup if money were not an option. Removing the stock 19s have given me some room to add a BBK and that was one of the main reasons why I wanted them.
09-26-2010, 10:08 AM
#12
3rd Gear Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Chicago
Posts: 757
I'm no expert on BBKs, and like Argo this is my first rodeo with them. So take this accordingly.
After tracking the car this year (a major step up from previous years), I have to say the ST-40 caliper system (14") works extremely well. One of the more noticeable differences from stock is how well the larger system deals with heat. I'm using 2-pc rotors and they are doing amazingly well. I would have gone through at least two sets of stock GT rotors by now, maybe three, but my current set is ready for a few more days/events. So I imagine the 15" systems offer a bit more of that same benefit.
Now, my real answer is to look at your future budget. Getting into a system isn't where the real expense lie, it's supporting it along the way. Consumables get seriously expensive if you track your car often. I look at those Miata guys with their little 15" tires and drool...do yourself a favor and don't look at the price differential between 18" and 15" tires. Heartbreaking. Of course, the same is said of 19" vs. 18" tires. If you're already there, so be it. Look at friction ring replacement costs (the larger rings are modestly more expensive), etc.
I'm not sure what it means to say money is not an obstacle. If you go with the 6-pot caliper system you are very likely committed to a 19" wheel/tire package, and so committed to supporting the consumables. That alone gives me the *******. I'd likely go with the 4-piston set up just to have greater flexibility in wheel/tire choice, should you decide down the road to move down to a less expensive option. If I was truly super wealthy, then sure why not go with the 6-piston set up and spend much more all day long? But then, I don't know if I would be tracking the Mustang like I am now...I'd be in something seriously sick (think West WX10 or Stohr WF1...).
If we're talking about tracking the car for fun or doing mild competitive level driving, I think the ST-40 based system is outstanding.
As for comparing Stoptech to the common Brembo system (GT500 take-offs), I can't say much. I have a buddy who runs the GT500 Brembo system and loves it. He's briefly driven my car, but not hard enough to really compare the two. I suspect my system has a few advantages over his, mainly because I've got the 2-pc rotors that are much lighter than his factory 1 pc rotors. I also run pads that I suspect have better modulation than his. That said, personally I think the GT500 system is the best bang for the buck in BBKs. But what do I know?
FWIW, between the two of us, who can brake harder? He can. However, this is not an indictment against Stoptech. My car isn't sprung hard enough to deal with the nose dive. When I really lay on the Stoptechs they stand the damn car on its nose, my rear end gets all kinds of crazy loose, and I'm about ready to call the priest. His car has much stiffer springs, so he's much more level and so can make use of his system to greater effect.
Like most things on a car, braking is a complex dynamic product. One part alone isn't delivering the outcome, so you have to think of the car in terms of systems that all come together to do what they do. HINT: Don't forget that a big part of that system is the driver.
Best,
-j
After tracking the car this year (a major step up from previous years), I have to say the ST-40 caliper system (14") works extremely well. One of the more noticeable differences from stock is how well the larger system deals with heat. I'm using 2-pc rotors and they are doing amazingly well. I would have gone through at least two sets of stock GT rotors by now, maybe three, but my current set is ready for a few more days/events. So I imagine the 15" systems offer a bit more of that same benefit.
Now, my real answer is to look at your future budget. Getting into a system isn't where the real expense lie, it's supporting it along the way. Consumables get seriously expensive if you track your car often. I look at those Miata guys with their little 15" tires and drool...do yourself a favor and don't look at the price differential between 18" and 15" tires. Heartbreaking. Of course, the same is said of 19" vs. 18" tires. If you're already there, so be it. Look at friction ring replacement costs (the larger rings are modestly more expensive), etc.
I'm not sure what it means to say money is not an obstacle. If you go with the 6-pot caliper system you are very likely committed to a 19" wheel/tire package, and so committed to supporting the consumables. That alone gives me the *******. I'd likely go with the 4-piston set up just to have greater flexibility in wheel/tire choice, should you decide down the road to move down to a less expensive option. If I was truly super wealthy, then sure why not go with the 6-piston set up and spend much more all day long? But then, I don't know if I would be tracking the Mustang like I am now...I'd be in something seriously sick (think West WX10 or Stohr WF1...).
If we're talking about tracking the car for fun or doing mild competitive level driving, I think the ST-40 based system is outstanding.
As for comparing Stoptech to the common Brembo system (GT500 take-offs), I can't say much. I have a buddy who runs the GT500 Brembo system and loves it. He's briefly driven my car, but not hard enough to really compare the two. I suspect my system has a few advantages over his, mainly because I've got the 2-pc rotors that are much lighter than his factory 1 pc rotors. I also run pads that I suspect have better modulation than his. That said, personally I think the GT500 system is the best bang for the buck in BBKs. But what do I know?
FWIW, between the two of us, who can brake harder? He can. However, this is not an indictment against Stoptech. My car isn't sprung hard enough to deal with the nose dive. When I really lay on the Stoptechs they stand the damn car on its nose, my rear end gets all kinds of crazy loose, and I'm about ready to call the priest. His car has much stiffer springs, so he's much more level and so can make use of his system to greater effect.
Like most things on a car, braking is a complex dynamic product. One part alone isn't delivering the outcome, so you have to think of the car in terms of systems that all come together to do what they do. HINT: Don't forget that a big part of that system is the driver.
Best,
-j
09-26-2010, 11:58 AM
#13
2nd Gear Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Irvine, CA
Posts: 164
I'm no expert on BBKs, and like Argo this is my first rodeo with them. So take this accordingly.
After tracking the car this year (a major step up from previous years), I have to say the ST-40 caliper system (14") works extremely well. One of the more noticeable differences from stock is how well the larger system deals with heat. I'm using 2-pc rotors and they are doing amazingly well. I would have gone through at least two sets of stock GT rotors by now, maybe three, but my current set is ready for a few more days/events. So I imagine the 15" systems offer a bit more of that same benefit.
Now, my real answer is to look at your future budget. Getting into a system isn't where the real expense lie, it's supporting it along the way. Consumables get seriously expensive if you track your car often. I look at those Miata guys with their little 15" tires and drool...do yourself a favor and don't look at the price differential between 18" and 15" tires. Heartbreaking. Of course, the same is said of 19" vs. 18" tires. If you're already there, so be it. Look at friction ring replacement costs (the larger rings are modestly more expensive), etc.
I'm not sure what it means to say money is not an obstacle. If you go with the 6-pot caliper system you are very likely committed to a 19" wheel/tire package, and so committed to supporting the consumables. That alone gives me the *******. I'd likely go with the 4-piston set up just to have greater flexibility in wheel/tire choice, should you decide down the road to move down to a less expensive option. If I was truly super wealthy, then sure why not go with the 6-piston set up and spend much more all day long? But then, I don't know if I would be tracking the Mustang like I am now...I'd be in something seriously sick (think West WX10 or Stohr WF1...).
If we're talking about tracking the car for fun or doing mild competitive level driving, I think the ST-40 based system is outstanding.
As for comparing Stoptech to the common Brembo system (GT500 take-offs), I can't say much. I have a buddy who runs the GT500 Brembo system and loves it. He's briefly driven my car, but not hard enough to really compare the two. I suspect my system has a few advantages over his, mainly because I've got the 2-pc rotors that are much lighter than his factory 1 pc rotors. I also run pads that I suspect have better modulation than his. That said, personally I think the GT500 system is the best bang for the buck in BBKs. But what do I know?
FWIW, between the two of us, who can brake harder? He can. However, this is not an indictment against Stoptech. My car isn't sprung hard enough to deal with the nose dive. When I really lay on the Stoptechs they stand the damn car on its nose, my rear end gets all kinds of crazy loose, and I'm about ready to call the priest. His car has much stiffer springs, so he's much more level and so can make use of his system to greater effect.
Like most things on a car, braking is a complex dynamic product. One part alone isn't delivering the outcome, so you have to think of the car in terms of systems that all come together to do what they do. HINT: Don't forget that a big part of that system is the driver.
Best,
-j
After tracking the car this year (a major step up from previous years), I have to say the ST-40 caliper system (14") works extremely well. One of the more noticeable differences from stock is how well the larger system deals with heat. I'm using 2-pc rotors and they are doing amazingly well. I would have gone through at least two sets of stock GT rotors by now, maybe three, but my current set is ready for a few more days/events. So I imagine the 15" systems offer a bit more of that same benefit.
Now, my real answer is to look at your future budget. Getting into a system isn't where the real expense lie, it's supporting it along the way. Consumables get seriously expensive if you track your car often. I look at those Miata guys with their little 15" tires and drool...do yourself a favor and don't look at the price differential between 18" and 15" tires. Heartbreaking. Of course, the same is said of 19" vs. 18" tires. If you're already there, so be it. Look at friction ring replacement costs (the larger rings are modestly more expensive), etc.
I'm not sure what it means to say money is not an obstacle. If you go with the 6-pot caliper system you are very likely committed to a 19" wheel/tire package, and so committed to supporting the consumables. That alone gives me the *******. I'd likely go with the 4-piston set up just to have greater flexibility in wheel/tire choice, should you decide down the road to move down to a less expensive option. If I was truly super wealthy, then sure why not go with the 6-piston set up and spend much more all day long? But then, I don't know if I would be tracking the Mustang like I am now...I'd be in something seriously sick (think West WX10 or Stohr WF1...).
If we're talking about tracking the car for fun or doing mild competitive level driving, I think the ST-40 based system is outstanding.
As for comparing Stoptech to the common Brembo system (GT500 take-offs), I can't say much. I have a buddy who runs the GT500 Brembo system and loves it. He's briefly driven my car, but not hard enough to really compare the two. I suspect my system has a few advantages over his, mainly because I've got the 2-pc rotors that are much lighter than his factory 1 pc rotors. I also run pads that I suspect have better modulation than his. That said, personally I think the GT500 system is the best bang for the buck in BBKs. But what do I know?
FWIW, between the two of us, who can brake harder? He can. However, this is not an indictment against Stoptech. My car isn't sprung hard enough to deal with the nose dive. When I really lay on the Stoptechs they stand the damn car on its nose, my rear end gets all kinds of crazy loose, and I'm about ready to call the priest. His car has much stiffer springs, so he's much more level and so can make use of his system to greater effect.
Like most things on a car, braking is a complex dynamic product. One part alone isn't delivering the outcome, so you have to think of the car in terms of systems that all come together to do what they do. HINT: Don't forget that a big part of that system is the driver.
Best,
-j
I have the Tien flex with the EDFC and when it is set to 0 it feels all but locked in place with little nose dive even under very extreme braking at high speed. The stock brakes are not worth my time and I am going to sell the car before I stay with these brakes one more month. They are the worst stock brakes I have ever used in any performance car.
I guess I should just take the car into a brake specialist who sells both Brembo and StopTech and look at the up front costs as well as some of the reoccurring costs.
09-26-2010, 01:31 PM
#14
5th Gear Member
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: CT
Posts: 2,612
I am a big fan of getting the most bang for my buck, and from the research I have done, the most cost effective solution that is great for any street and occasional visits to the track were a few simple upgrades, that hell you can do in stages as you want.
This is how I'm going to part my system together.
1. Pads, probably hawk.
2. Slotted rotors, probably power slot. If on a budget just do the front ones at first.(pads can take the heat, but slotted rotors will still help keep overall temps down and make it easier on the tubing and brake fluid)
3. braided cables for the calipers and some dot 4 fluid.
like I said you can do that in stages spending a few hundred at a time max, of if you had the money get something like this:
http://www.brenspeed.com/86-330-01414.html
not many people truly need more then this. Will certainly handle a mountain road and mild tracking, without going crazy and dropping 4k on a brake kit that you will only use 30% of its capability.
This is how I'm going to part my system together.
1. Pads, probably hawk.
2. Slotted rotors, probably power slot. If on a budget just do the front ones at first.(pads can take the heat, but slotted rotors will still help keep overall temps down and make it easier on the tubing and brake fluid)
3. braided cables for the calipers and some dot 4 fluid.
like I said you can do that in stages spending a few hundred at a time max, of if you had the money get something like this:
http://www.brenspeed.com/86-330-01414.html
not many people truly need more then this. Will certainly handle a mountain road and mild tracking, without going crazy and dropping 4k on a brake kit that you will only use 30% of its capability.
09-26-2010, 04:06 PM
#15
3rd Gear Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Chicago
Posts: 757
Personally, I think JD is on the right path.
Keep in mind that there really is no such thing as "brakes." That's a blanket term used to talk about a multi-part system, any one of which can make or break one's experience/success with the whole system. When folks say that the stock "brakes" suck, I always want to know what they've done with the stock "system" that has not met to their satisfaction. I suspect that most of what people say sucks is attributed to the stock pads. They really-really do suck. However, once you upgrade to better pads, the whole system works extremely well for street use and pretty darn well for most beginning and intermediate track duty. I forget the guys name, but there is even a fairly competitive racer who is still using the stock calipers and rotors. The stock "brakes" are actually that good once properly treated to key upgrades.
Everyone has a different perspective on money, so what I would do with my buck isn't going to fit everyone. I will say, however, that if you haven't at least tried a pad upgrade then you are spending money without knowing if it's necessary for your braking needs. Some folks are ok spending their money that way. Cool. Others are not comfortable doing things that way. Cool. None of it's my money. =)
As for other systems that influence braking, one word of caution. I had great success with the OEM GT system outfitted with XP10 pads, Motul brake fluid (bled before each event), brake ducts, and braided lines...working through hot street tires (Toyo R1R). I thought I had the perfect combination of streetable/track-worthy springs and dampers. When I switched to R-comps and the Stoptech system I got a rude awakening. Mostly, I blame the R-comps (although, they do let the Stoptech system shine). That level of grip really exposes your system's weaknesses. So don't be surprised if what you thought was great suddenly becomes marginal when you start to really haul her down.
Best,
-j
Keep in mind that there really is no such thing as "brakes." That's a blanket term used to talk about a multi-part system, any one of which can make or break one's experience/success with the whole system. When folks say that the stock "brakes" suck, I always want to know what they've done with the stock "system" that has not met to their satisfaction. I suspect that most of what people say sucks is attributed to the stock pads. They really-really do suck. However, once you upgrade to better pads, the whole system works extremely well for street use and pretty darn well for most beginning and intermediate track duty. I forget the guys name, but there is even a fairly competitive racer who is still using the stock calipers and rotors. The stock "brakes" are actually that good once properly treated to key upgrades.
Everyone has a different perspective on money, so what I would do with my buck isn't going to fit everyone. I will say, however, that if you haven't at least tried a pad upgrade then you are spending money without knowing if it's necessary for your braking needs. Some folks are ok spending their money that way. Cool. Others are not comfortable doing things that way. Cool. None of it's my money. =)
As for other systems that influence braking, one word of caution. I had great success with the OEM GT system outfitted with XP10 pads, Motul brake fluid (bled before each event), brake ducts, and braided lines...working through hot street tires (Toyo R1R). I thought I had the perfect combination of streetable/track-worthy springs and dampers. When I switched to R-comps and the Stoptech system I got a rude awakening. Mostly, I blame the R-comps (although, they do let the Stoptech system shine). That level of grip really exposes your system's weaknesses. So don't be surprised if what you thought was great suddenly becomes marginal when you start to really haul her down.
Best,
-j
Last edited by Philostang; 09-26-2010 at 04:08 PM.
09-26-2010, 06:26 PM
#16
4th Gear Member
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1,692
Depending on what tracks you are running on front brake cooling can really help.
Last weekend two of us were running basically the same speeds on the same track and my car with the GT500 Brembo kit and front brake cooling had no problems but the other Mustang with a BBK and no cooling lost his brakes because the fluid boiled.
Both of us run SCs so on a short track the extra power makes it harder on the brakes because our speeds between corners are higher.
Last weekend two of us were running basically the same speeds on the same track and my car with the GT500 Brembo kit and front brake cooling had no problems but the other Mustang with a BBK and no cooling lost his brakes because the fluid boiled.
Both of us run SCs so on a short track the extra power makes it harder on the brakes because our speeds between corners are higher.
09-26-2010, 08:17 PM
#17
4th Gear Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Harrisburg PA
Posts: 1,778
Where did you get this information from (slotted rotors run cooler)...can you point me to the source? I don't buy it, I'd need to see real data that proves it. Sounds like marketing hype to me.
09-26-2010, 08:32 PM
#18
5th Gear Member
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: CT
Posts: 2,612
Well now that you mention it, I guess I fell victim to mob mentality and have been hearing it for many years, with no actual proof. however what does make sense is that they help keep the point of contact clear while applying brakes, by giving the particulates and dust you are creating a place to go as the rotor spins resulting in less fade. If cooling were to be happening also, I would think it would be a result of increase of inward to outward airflow being generated as the heavier dust is being collected in the groves and slung to the outside. But now I'm thinking of it from more of a theoretical / engineering standpoint that I cant support with numbers either ;-)
09-26-2010, 08:34 PM
#19
4th Gear Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Harrisburg PA
Posts: 1,778
Don't assume 6 piston calipers are going to stop the car any better than 4 pots. The pressure your system applies is dependent on the total area of the pistons, not the number of pistons. 4 and 6 piston systems properly sized for the Mustang have the same area. It doesn't matter, ST40 and ST60 are going to stop the same. 6 piston does give you different pad options though and do allow the pressure to be applied more consistently over the back of the pad, which may lead to longer wear rates and less taper, but you would have to be really hammering the system to see any benefit. And of course they offer the 'I have more pistons than you' bragging rights.
Also - there are more choices than Stoptech and GT500 Brembos. Stillen sells an AP racing kit for the Mustang (AP racing is probably the most used name in racing: Nascar, F1, etc). Willwood is also an option.
Also - there are more choices than Stoptech and GT500 Brembos. Stillen sells an AP racing kit for the Mustang (AP racing is probably the most used name in racing: Nascar, F1, etc). Willwood is also an option.
09-26-2010, 09:31 PM
#20
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Washington
Posts: 38
This has been a terrific thread in summing up the different options and the rationales behind the options. With foul weather on its way (and carving up mountain passes is just not the same with snow on the ground...), I am going to try pads & fluid first.
Thanks all for your time, I will update the forum as I progress on my car's upgrades.
-waid
Thanks all for your time, I will update the forum as I progress on my car's upgrades.
-waid