Waid Here

I've found that the brakes on my 2007 GT get a bit soft and ineffective when enjoying some great mountain roads. Around town, they seem ok, but they are lacking when letting the car unwind through a pass.

Any practical advice? While I am certain that slapping a 6 piston Brembo kit would fix the problem, are there options that bridge the gap from stock to Brembo's?

thanks all!

-waid

Philostang

Welcome!

Do yourself a favor, use the search function to look up posts on brakes, track worthy brakes, bbk necessary, bbk vs modified OEM system, etc. This topic has been discussed at length. It should be a good read for you.

The long and the short of it is that there are very good upgrades to the OEM system that are proven under very demanding conditions.

From what little you offered, it sounds like proper pad compound selection is likely to deliver the biggest dividends for you. The stock pads suck (IMHO) and virtually anything from Hawk, Carbotech, and Performance Friction that is geared as a street upgrade is going to make you very happy.

If you have no intention of tracking your car, you can even skip upgrading the fluid and brake lines, so long as they are fresh and in good order. Oh, and just forget about "upgrading" the rotors, you're just wasting money if you're only after a street upgrade.

Others chime in as you see fit.

Best,
-j

Waid Here

Thanks Philostang - I apologize for my previous lack of precision. I've also been scouring forum search results for threads on upgrading S197 brakes. At first glace, it seemed that I was asking about an edge case (as it is not really a track like Portland or Seattle International Raceways and the sustained speeds are not normally seen driving around town).

thanks again for the pointers.

-waid


P.S. Here are more details of what I am encountering:
Typical western Washington roads I have in mind are US 2 (commonly known as Stevens Pass Highway) and US 20 (North Cascades Highway). While sustained speeds (without being crazy or pushing it) can often be at speed, there are frequent curves that call for 30~45 mph or less & of course there are the local towns with the usual 25 mph speed zone. There are times when repeated slowing down (especially while heading down a pass) will start to get that "it ain't happening like it was" feeling in the brake pedal.

Philostang

I need a sound clip of "You've lost that loving feeling..."

Ok, that helps a bit. Mostly I still say pad compound is your fix. What you're looking for is a pad with a bit higher heat tolerance. For example, Carbotech's Bobcat pads have a temp range from ambient to 900 deg. Their AX6 pads are up to 1150 deg. That's buying you a larger window of heating up before they start to give up the ghost. Chances are in street driving that you will have time to cool them down before they ever get close to that range.

But we're ahead of ourselves. When you say "it ain't happening like it was" is the feeling your getting, you could mean one of two things (each with different fixes).

Ain't happening like it was 1: pedal starts to go to the floor further and further to get the same braking (or feels the same, but then pedal level starts to abruptly give).

Ain't happening like it was 2: pedal travel stays about the same, but requires more effort to stop (or you apply same pressure, but they just don't seem to grab).

#1 is a fluid problem, namely you're starting to boil it. I doubt that's your problem. When it happens (ask me how I know...) it's a serious buzz kill. Your pedal just sort of...you know, goes out from under you.

#2 is a pad problem, namely you've got more heat in the pads than their compound can stand. That's where serious track pads come into play. We like to beat the snot out of our brakes and only a dedicated track compound can take the abuse (Actually, they like it that way...dirty little harlots! They don't even start really working well until 250 deg or more.)

What you've described sounds like you get a bit of heat in them and they don't like it. Hawk HPS or HP+ and Carbotech Bobcats will all take this level of heat pretty well. If you're a real hoon on the streets, you may need to step up a bit. Be careful though, the more stout a compound the dustier they generally are (and the true track compounds will squeal like stuck pigs on you).

Hope that helps a bit. Sounds like you really enjoy the drive...I feel you. I think a better pad is going to make you love the car all over again.

Best,
-j

FWIW, on the street I run Carbotech Bobcat pads. Their initial bite is very civilized, and overall they're worlds better than stock. However, I must say I've gotten so used to the initial bite of my track pads that I'm considering running the AX6 pads just to regain some of that "instant on" feel the XP12s give me. You just "think" brake and they're on top of it. Mean mothers...I love 'em.

Argonaut

Mountain roads can really work the brake system. I just returned from a three day trip thru the mountains of eastern West Virginia and know exactly what you are talking about - doing like 60 or 70 on a straight stretch and then braking hard, downhill, for a 30 mph corner is a killer...doing it over and over will really expose the OEM braking weaknesses.

1) Upgrade your brake pads. You want something that with more friction and a higher temp operating range. The usual suggestion for street use is Hawk HP+ or Carbotech Bobcat. But, depending on how hard and for how long your "mountain" stints are, those may even be to soft. Hawk HT-10 would do the trick as would Carbotech XP8. But be advised - the more performance/track oriented the pad, the louder they will squeal and the more dust they will produce. HT-10 in particular can be very noisy.

2) Since brake fluid is a cheap upgrade you might as well change it out. Bleed out the factory DOT3 and put in some good DOT 4 like ATE type 200 or Motul 600. You won't find these at your local autoparts store...probably need to order online. I get Motul 600 from Amazon dot com. You probably aren't boiling your fluid but by switching to a DOT 4 you can be sure your not.

3) Do the above items first. See how it goes and if they do the trick. If not then you are really pushing hard and should take it to the track. A BBK like StopTech or the GT500 Brembos will still need good pads and fluids but they also provide greater heat capacity and hence are the ultimate solution...but they come at a high price. The above will probably work just fine.

Argonaut

John - you and I are posting at the same time...LOL.

Speaking of noisy pads. I put a set of Carbonne Loarraine RC8's in my track car, their top pad for heavy cars. Yikes, when cold they have the worst squeal of any pad I've ever heard. The slightest application of brake makes you want to reach for the ear plugs. I'm curious, since you are using radial mount calipers now, do you notice they have any more squeal than the slide rails? I have AP racing calipers now, my first BBK, and these CL pads are the only ones I've tried thus far but I can't believe how loud they are and am wondering if its partially the radial calipers.

Philostang

Hey Argo,

At least we're also posting the same recommendation! =)

Well, I can't say my current set up (Stoptech BBK w/their 4-pot calipers) is any more quiet than the OEM calipers when loaded with track pads. I've gotten the same level of noise now (maybe less if anything...maybe?). Although, my experience is actually the opposite in terms of the onset of noise. The Carbotech XP10 and XP12 pads are actually very quiet when cold. They're also surprisingly grippy. I know they're "optimal" above 250 degrees, but even at ambient temps the initial bite is pretty eye opening (I actually have to think about lead time for cars behind me when I have them in while driving to the track). Anyway, after a few stops they start to whine and squeal. If I opt to keep them in after a track event, the drive home is embarrassing if I hit stop-and-go traffic. People look over like "Man, about time to change those brakes isn't it?" At least when coming off the track at an event people know the deal, so you don't get that f'd up look from folks.

I think you've just found yourself a particularly loud pad. The Carbotech's can be loud, but I've definitely heard some pads around the paddock that are just ungodly loud. What are you gonna do? All that goes out the window when you hit that first braking zone doesn't it.

Ok...my track season had to end early this year, so you can tell I'm already having withdrawal symptoms...

Grrrrr!!

-j

Waid Here

Bingo. Based upon popular acclaim, it sounds like a set of Bobcats are in order.

Do people turn rotors anymore? Or you do just put on new ones when you change the pad compound?

thanks all!

-waid

908ssp

When was the last time your brake fluid was changed?

Philostang

Couldn't hurt to bleed the brakes and refresh the fluid. But note, old brake fluid isn't going to result in #2. If you had air in the lines in general, you would feel it on the first application of the pedal. But that's not what you reported.

You could have another problem with old fluid that would only arise during heavy brake use. Old fluid's major problem is tied to the fact that brake fluid is hygroscopic (it absorbs water). Water boils at something less than a desirable temperature. [That was a joke...laugh damn it...] Anyway, what happens to a fluid when it boils? It turns to gas, and that once lovable firm feeling at the pedal becomes mush under the heat of hard braking. Of course, now with that old water-soaked fluid all this induced-mushiness is going to happen much earlier than it would otherwise.

If you look up boiling points for brake fluid you will find two sets of figures: a dry boiling point and a wet boiling point. The "wet" one is the one that shows how well the fluid will hold up once it has absorbed a certain percentage of water (I forget what the industry standard is for qualifying as "wet"). Unless you like changing your fluid often, the wet figure should interest you more, as that's what you may have in a year. Some great dry fluids turn to crap when wet. Wilwood's basic "High Temp" fluid is like that; the wet figure drops off the map when it gets wet.

Man, I'm in a chatty mood tonight...

Ok, so rotors. If you go with Hawk, that stuff eats through everything, so lots of folks will just slap a set on. Carbotech's compounds are more sensitive to a kind of contamination (they don't bed well with a "dirty" rotor). So they are pretty adamant about starting with a fresh rotor surface. And then I think quite a few folks still turn their rotors just to start with nice level surfaces. Given the low cost, I don't blame them. Of course, some folks are getting take-off rotors for just sick prices, so that's not a bad route either.

Best,
-j