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Panhard vs Watt's Looking For Detailed Info

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Old 12-26-2010, 09:07 PM   #21
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Thanks for letting me interlace your thread with some additional questions, mainly targeted at street......
No problem at all! Your questions actually are coincident with mine in that I want to build a performance suspension with streetability in mind too.
I want to be able to drive my car to the track and then compete, not have to trailer it in.

I guess it is a matter of preference and also what class one would race in. For example, just like in drag strip racing: Someone could build a drag racer that could be driven to the track, or he could build an all out *****-to-the-wall off-road drag racer that is completely dedicated to the track only (i.e. it will never pass emissions, you cannot get street lic plates for it, etc.).

I guess as part of going to the local 'Stang fan meets and cruises, I don't just want to brag about my car and cannot show it to the guys, I want to be able to have it with me at the meets and show them too!
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Old 12-27-2010, 05:56 PM   #22
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I run the steeda watts. It's completely silent and I could feel the difference the first time I backed my car out my driveway after installation. Even low speed road irregularities are 'damped'...the word I would use to describe how it feels vs. the panhard. When I installed higher rate lowering springs the issues with a solid rear axle really started to appear. Things you don't notice with soft stock springs and control arms. Every movement was accentuated. The watts settled it down and restored a tighter, more solid and comfortable feel. The car also tracks straighter (or so it feels).

I will add there will probably be maintenance required at some point so you have to take that into consideration. A lot more bushings/rodends etc back there with the watts over the simplicity of a panhard.
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Old 12-27-2010, 06:05 PM   #23
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Funny, that comment about "I felt the difference in my driveway" has been stated to me more than once, by folks who don't know each other at all. I think that's a hugely, HUGELY telling indication of how much difference it makes. Last I checked most folks aren't racing down their driveways....

Really the only ones who will tell you a Watts isn't worth it are those that don't have one and have convinced themselves they only matter on "race cars".
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Old 12-27-2010, 06:07 PM   #24
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I am not calling into question your individual perception of NVH. However, I cannot imagine having rod ends on the Watts for a daily driver!

I have LCA's that use rod end on one side and poly on the other. I noticed a substantial increase in NVH, even to the point of being able to hear the gears when at low speed. A Watts with all Rod Ends would be way to much for me on the street. Plus, I imagine that the polys are plenty.

Is that the only difference between the Steeda and Fays2?

Thanks!
I've also run (well, tried to run) rod-end components and could hear every one of them to some extent. I've had double rod end control arms, poly/rod end control arms, roto-joint style control arms, double rod end panhard (which I still have, cant seem to give it away!), and roto-joint style/poly panhard. I could hear every one of em'...thogh roto-joints to a much lesser extent.

The rod-ends on the watts link ala fays2 style are somewhat isolated from the main suspension components (axle/chassis) so they may not be as noticable. I just know I won't run a rod-end part on my street car ever again.
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Old 12-27-2010, 06:29 PM   #25
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A few points on rod-ends. There are, like there are with most things, various qualities of rod-ends. $5 rattle trap specials all the way to really pricey, tight tolerance types. Fays2 doesn't use cheap rod-ends they are are Aurora units. And I can say that neither of mine a racket. In fact I can only think of a few times total someone complained of any noise whatever from one. MUCH LESS than the per capita number of complaints of nose from LCA's, UCA's, etc.

The biggest reason I do sell both is because of the differences in ends, because functionally they both work, and work the way they should.
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Old 12-27-2010, 06:46 PM   #26
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I will add that a lot of noise I was experiencing was also due to inconsistencies in bolt -> rod end or bushing insert clearances. Going with some longer shoulder correct sized fasteners killed a lot of the racket.
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Old 12-27-2010, 07:35 PM   #27
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A few points on rod-ends. There are, like there are with most things, various qualities of rod-ends. $5 rattle trap specials all the way to really pricey, tight tolerance types. Fays2 doesn't use cheap rod-ends they are are Aurora units. And I can say that neither of mine a racket. In fact I can only think of a few times total someone complained of any noise whatever from one. MUCH LESS than the per capita number of complaints of nose from LCA's, UCA's, etc.

The biggest reason I do sell both is because of the differences in ends, because functionally they both work, and work the way they should.
I know what you mean between high quality and low quality.

But I am not talking about low quality banging. I am just talking about the mere fact that rod ends trasmit (for my taste) too much noise from the road and running gear into the cabin for a street car. As well, on a street car (even if tracked occassionally) the rod ends are truly overkill. If you have a dedicated or mostly dedicated track car, then go for it. Otherwise, rod ends just do not make much sense due to road noise, etc on a street car and that they will never be truly needed on a street car anyway.

Between the Fays2 and the Steeda are there any really noticeable differences? I know price and the poly/rod ends, but otherwise????

Thanks!
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Old 12-27-2010, 09:07 PM   #28
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The only noticeable NVH I get from my Fays 2 is above 60MPH and under hard acceleration above those speeds. Even then, it is minor. Just cruising around town, I don't hear any NVH from the Fays2.
I was looking at Sam's site, and I noticed the Fay's are significantly cheaper, http://www.stranoparts.com/partdetai...=209&ModelID=5

The Steeda Watts are are over 1K.
Is there some other components you have to buy to get the Fays to bolt on and function? Or is that simply it as shown here?
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Old 12-27-2010, 09:37 PM   #29
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I was looking at Sam's site, and I noticed the Fay's are significantly cheaper, http://www.stranoparts.com/partdetai...=209&ModelID=5

The Steeda Watts are are over 1K.
Is there some other components you have to buy to get the Fays to bolt on and function? Or is that simply it as shown here?
Everything you need to bolt up the Fays2 is in the box.
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Old 12-27-2010, 09:47 PM   #30
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Thanks for the info, Jason!

I was reading your suspension mods list, do the Steeda springs lower your car any? Or are you at the same stock ride height? And for their spring rate, how do they feel with the Fays Watts you are using?
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Old 12-27-2010, 10:00 PM   #31
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Thanks for the info, Jason!

I was reading your suspension mods list, do the Steeda springs lower your car any? Or are you at the same stock ride height? And for their spring rate, how do they feel with the Fays Watts you are using?
The Steeda Springs were a very mild drop. I'm guessing a little less than an inch, but it made a huge difference in handling. Nose dive was nearly eliminated and body roll was minimal, and that was on factory struts/shocks.

The spring rate feels great with the Fays2 Watts Link. I'm *still* getting the suspension dialed in. I threw so much at it in one afternoon's worth of work by putting on the Watts Link, Strano front and rear sway bars, Koni Sport shocks/struts, Steeda HD strut mounts, and BBR Billet LCA's. The ride is amazing over stock. The car is planted and corners like it is on rails. Here's the brutal honesty of the situation, everything is set pretty neutral right now. The only thing I have messed with is shock settings in the couple of weeks I've had it. We've had some cold weather, and I've been working crazy hours. This weekend, I plan on getting up under the car and adjusting the Watts a little and possibly taking a little out of the front bar. I *should* have done one thing at a time, but I had a buddy with a lift and all the right tools, and we knocked it all out in about 5 hours. I know the suspension as it sits right now isn't configured in an optimal setting, but half the fun will be getting it dialed in.

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Old 12-27-2010, 11:26 PM   #32
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Between the Fays2 and the Steeda are there any really noticeable differences? I know price and the poly/rod ends, but otherwise????
Thanks!
You'll be hard pressed to locate anyone that has run both and can give an honest opinion on the differences. They both perform the same function, steeda's is a *bit* lighter weight, uses poly bushings, four bolts (albeit smaller) as opposed to one larger bolt on the propeller and is considerably more expensive. Also steeda builds them to order so you have to wait about 2 weeks for them to fabricate and powder coat it.

I'd be glad to give my subjective review on each if Sam would be so kind as to send me a Fays2 test unit for a few weeks .
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Old 12-28-2010, 06:55 AM   #33
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The Watts link on the street makes a huge difference. The whole point is that the more uneven the driving surface combined with wanting to corner hard and accelerate out of corners is the reason to get the Watts link.

The Techco Watts link I have plants the rear with no butt kick out while cornering hard over bumps or dips. The original panhard set up was terrible, anyone driving in the car on a bumpy corner would say "what was that??" referring to the lateral slide of the car on cornering on bumps.

Accelerating out of uneven turns is also much better because there is a lot less throw out to the rear wheels. Along with my better springs, shocks, and swaybars, the watts link is the best money spent for eliminating most of the issues with our solid axles.

In my experience on the street, there is a large improvement in cornering stability with a good Watts link, which does not include the generation 1 and 2 from Saleen, which are prone to having the center bolt fail, and the Gen 1 unit's support arms were designed too short, and did not eliminate lateral movement like the Techco model and Steeda and Fays units. Erik
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Old 12-30-2010, 01:48 PM   #34
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for people that have watts links, does it put down the power better from standstills or from 1-2 gear changes. Less tire squeal or chirping?
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Old 12-30-2010, 01:54 PM   #35
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for people that have watts links, does it put down the power better from standstills or from 1-2 gear changes. Less tire squeal or chirping?
It does put down the power better, but if you have more HP than the tires will hold you will still break traction. You just break traction in a straight line instead of the rear end kicking out and getting sideways. My car was straight up ornery at WOT from 1-2, but now it just shoots forward like a rocket in a straight line.
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Old 12-30-2010, 01:59 PM   #36
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It helps with the side to side movement of
the rear end during rear end suspension travel.
I dont see it doing much for off the line performance.
The rear end does not 'kick out' all that much
during rear suspension take-off squat.
Do the math. Not enought to 'break traction
or cause you to go sideways.
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Old 12-30-2010, 02:07 PM   #37
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It helps with the side to side movement of
the rear end during rear end suspension travel.
I dont see it doing much for off the line performance.
The rear end does not 'kick out' all that much
during rear suspension take-off squat.
Do the math. Not enought to 'break traction
or cause you to go sideways.
For my car, it made a huge difference. I also threw a LOT of suspension at my car in one day, so it probably isn't just the Watts Link. My car would get seriously out of shape on the 1-2 shift at WOT prior to the Watts Link. It doesn't anymore. It does it in a straight line. I also got Koni Yellows, LCA's, and a new sway bars when I did the Watts.
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Old 12-30-2010, 02:40 PM   #38
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It does put down the power better, but if you have more HP than the tires will hold you will still break traction. You just break traction in a straight line instead of the rear end kicking out and getting sideways. My car was straight up ornery at WOT from 1-2, but now it just shoots forward like a rocket in a straight line.
Exactly. Less lateral axle movement translates into better straight line acceleration. Tires and differential would be the main traction improvement items but I've sworn to stop putting money into this car and installed some rear Koni sports yesterday. Now I'm considering selling a kidney to get the fronts! Wow, what a difference the Koni's are compared to the d-specs I was running back there. They soak up everything the road throws at em. I must upgrade the fronts now.
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Old 12-30-2010, 03:14 PM   #39
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I'm glad we can add you list of those that like the Koni's over D-specs... but dude, I don't recall sending you any Koni rears????? I've got plenty of those in stock, just wondering how's come they didn't come from me?
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Old 12-30-2010, 04:08 PM   #40
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I'm glad we can add you list of those that like the Koni's over D-specs... but dude, I don't recall sending you any Koni rears????? I've got plenty of those in stock, just wondering how's come they didn't come from me?
I thought you said you were out of them when we last spoke! To be fair I did call your shop a few times but you were probably running around on Monday. Saw tirerack had them stocked and picked them up. I can afford the fronts now w/o giving up a kidney if you can locate any.
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