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Panhard vs Watt's Looking For Detailed Info

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Old 12-30-2010, 09:04 PM   #41
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I finished up the installation of my Steeda Watt's Link today. I only got to drive it about 15 miles today and not very hard, lots of traffic and wet roads. It still felt good.

Thanks for the help with the install; Sam and Don.

Jim
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Old 12-31-2010, 03:18 AM   #42
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I am using the Steeda watts link for two seasons now. Been racing it hardly on circuits and some hill climbs. The only downside I found is that under lot of stress the mounts on rear end don't hold even if you tighten them as much as you can and the whole watts link moves side to side. I had to fabricate and weld stops to each side. Now it works perfect.

Jan
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Old 12-31-2010, 08:26 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by jsnyng View Post
For my car, it made a huge difference. I also threw a LOT of suspension at my car in one day, so it probably isn't just the Watts Link. My car would get seriously out of shape on the 1-2 shift at WOT prior to the Watts Link. It doesn't anymore. It does it in a straight line. I also got Koni Yellows, LCA's, and a new sway bars when I did the Watts.
Agreed.
The sway bar will help with right side squat more than the watt link
along with the springs and Konis.
Watts are good for dips during high speed cornering to help keep the
rear end centered.
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Old 12-31-2010, 04:01 PM   #44
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I'm glad we can add you list of those that like the Koni's over D-specs... but dude, I don't recall sending you any Koni rears????? I've got plenty of those in stock, just wondering how's come they didn't come from me?
You better be sending some Koni fronts my way. Autocross season is coming!
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Old 12-31-2010, 07:13 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thevesh View Post
I am using the Steeda watts link for two seasons now. Been racing it hardly on circuits and some hill climbs. The only downside I found is that under lot of stress the mounts on rear end don't hold even if you tighten them as much as you can and the whole watts link moves side to side. I had to fabricate and weld stops to each side. Now it works perfect.

Jan
Thanks for the honest feedback on that piece. Their mounts never quite looked "right" to me, but I figured they had sound engineering behind them. For what they are charging, it shouldn't be doing that. Scales tipped towards the Fays2...
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Old 01-01-2011, 12:55 AM   #46
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Seems like the best bet would be a Fays2 price and mounts with the Steeda poly ends......

Oh well
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Old 01-01-2011, 04:22 AM   #47
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I briefly read through all the posts, but have you looked at Griggs Racing? I plan on using the watts link from them, along with other suspension parts/kits.
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Old 01-01-2011, 11:05 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Import_Slaya View Post
Thanks for the honest feedback on that piece. Their mounts never quite looked "right" to me, but I figured they had sound engineering behind them. For what they are charging, it shouldn't be doing that. Scales tipped towards the Fays2...
The fays will do the same thing ..do your self a favor and get a Griggs unit and be done with it !

The clamps on both units arnt strong enough to do real road racing period without slipping on the axle tubes ..and Auto cross doesnt count for racing either !
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Old 01-01-2011, 11:30 AM   #49
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The Griggs piece is axle-mounted. I'm not entirely sure why - it should make the handling slightly "looser" under power on corner exit.


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Old 01-01-2011, 11:43 AM   #50
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The clamps on both units arnt strong enough to do real road racing period without slipping on the axle tubes ..and Auto cross doesnt count for racing either !
I would think a couple of small tackwelds or small lugs welded to the axle tubes would stop any lateral bracket shift. Getting either design clamp to climb up and over a weld or lug thickness would require a huge amount more lateral load than it takes to get a friction clamp to slide in the presence of vibration and likely FIA curb impact.

The tackwelds might not have to actually weld the clamps to the tubes, meaning that the WL would still be an easily "reversible" modification either for the way class rules are written or in case the car is later sold in more or less OE configuration. Just that they're physically there should be enough.


Thanks - this was worth making me stop and think a little.


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Old 01-01-2011, 12:25 PM   #51
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Seems like the best bet would be a Fays2 price and mounts with the Steeda poly ends......

Oh well
Are you aware that there are rubber rod end replacements? Go here and scroll down a little.

I think Howe carries them or something comparable, but I'm not sure if the thread size in their parts matches any of the available Watts links. I imagine that any difference could be overcome.

Yes, you'd get a little more lateral movement than with rod ends, but it would still be symmetrical as far as turning left vs right is concerned. As would the roll center vertical migration.

Or you might take the basic idea and run with it as a DIY with poly bushings instead of rubber.


I'd have posted this earlier except that I can't get to the above-linked page at work.


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Old 01-01-2011, 09:43 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sd07gt View Post
The fays will do the same thing ..do your self a favor and get a Griggs unit and be done with it !

The clamps on both units arnt strong enough to do real road racing period without slipping on the axle tubes ..and Auto cross doesnt count for racing either !
Source? That would be the first I've heard of the Fays2 doing it. A *lot* more clamping area on the Fays2 as compared to the Steeda design.
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Old 01-02-2011, 09:12 AM   #53
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Clamping area probably isn't important here, unless direct mechanical interference between the clamp metal and the axle tube metal is created.


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Old 01-02-2011, 01:15 PM   #54
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I'm leaning twords the Fays for my 2011 SVT PP car. On the street how noisy is the Fays going to be? Considering it doesn't use poly bushings.



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Old 01-03-2011, 11:01 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Norm Peterson View Post
Clamping area probably isn't important here, unless direct mechanical interference between the clamp metal and the axle tube metal is created.


Norm
How so, Norm? If the clamps are shifting laterally, it seems like more clamping force would solve the issue. The Steeda design looks like it is 1/8" thick steel (alloy), giving a relatively small surface area compared to the Fays2 clamps. I see this as a bad thing for two reasons--less surface area = less friction; and the narrow contact point limits how tightly they can be clamped on the axle tube due to bucking concerns.
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Old 01-03-2011, 11:17 AM   #56
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Friction between two nominally smooth metal surfaces is dependent on clamp load but independent of contact area.

Axle tube deformation and whether you're clamp load limited more by buckling considerations than you might gain from greater resistance to slippage due to a little axle tube deformation under clamp loads is another matter and probably something you'd have to throw at a finite element program.


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Old 01-03-2011, 11:31 AM   #57
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The fays will do the same thing ..do your self a favor and get a Griggs unit and be done with it !

The clamps on both units arnt strong enough to do real road racing period without slipping on the axle tubes ..and Auto cross doesnt count for racing either !

Based on what experience? I've been using Fays2 for a few years now with no slippage. And on Hoosiers, on big wheels, on a heavy car (two in fact).

I feel that statement is complete crap based on my personal and professional experience with multiple units.

And as for autox not counting as racing. Shows your ignorance as we not only pull very high g numbers, but also do it under much higher transition rates, and there is video that shows the lateral grip we pull. And fwiw, I do track my cars too.
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Old 01-03-2011, 11:43 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Norm Peterson View Post
Friction between two nominally smooth metal surfaces is dependent on clamp load but independent of contact area.

Axle tube deformation and whether you're clamp load limited more by buckling considerations than you might gain from greater resistance to slippage due to a little axle tube deformation under clamp loads is another matter and probably something you'd have to throw at a finite element program.


Norm
Thanks Norm. It's been 20 years since I used the friction equation and I just looked it up. Sheesh, that is not at all intuitive...

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Based on what experience? I've been using Fays2 for a few years now with no slippage. And on Hoosiers, on big wheels, on a heavy car (two in fact).

I feel that statement is complete crap based on my personal and professional experience with multiple units.

And as for autox not counting as racing. Shows your ignorance as we not only pull very high g numbers, but also do it under much higher transition rates, and there is video that shows the lateral grip we pull. And fwiw, I do track my cars too.
And this is what I was waiting for. If you and others aren't seeing any slipping under autocross conditions on Hoosiers, I certainly won't. Still waiting on a source from sd07GT...
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Old 01-03-2011, 12:43 PM   #59
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I am seriously considering a Watts for my daily driver. However, I seem to be stuck.

The Fays2 is Rod Ends which I definately do not want on the street. Yes, I know I could monkey around and try to fit my own poly ends, but I am looking for an out of the box solution, not one that I have to peice together.

The Steeda has Poly ends but the lack of it staying put ont he axle, even though I am a street only vehicle) makes me more than nervous.

I cannot find much info on the Griggs unit.

I know the Saleen had issues.

Can someone in the know offer up a solution????

Sam - Is the Steeda your selling okay if I weld it to the axle?
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Old 01-03-2011, 12:55 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by FastDEW View Post
I am seriously considering a Watts for my daily driver. However, I seem to be stuck.

The Fays2 is Rod Ends which I definately do not want on the street. Yes, I know I could monkey around and try to fit my own poly ends, but I am looking for an out of the box solution, not one that I have to peice together.

The Steeda has Poly ends but the lack of it staying put ont he axle, even though I am a street only vehicle) makes me more than nervous.

I cannot find much info on the Griggs unit.

I know the Saleen had issues.

Can someone in the know offer up a solution????

Sam - Is the Steeda your selling okay if I weld it to the axle?
Are you concerned with NVH? Is that the problem? If so, my Fays2 is danged near silent on the street. I've only had it in for 1,500 miles or so, but it is quiet. On days I work from home, on my lunch break I go out and run the twisties near my house. I am hammering the car side to side on some of these streets, and it is quiet. If it is not NVH you're concerned with then disregard my comments.
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Old 01-03-2011, 12:55 PM
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