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Panhard vs Watt's Looking For Detailed Info

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Old 04-07-2012, 12:47 PM   #101
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I agree. There is a large unused parking lot by my performance shop, and after they were done adjusting my suspension with numerous test runs(dampers,sway bars, bumpsteer) I took a hard drive around and around accelerating as I was cornering over bumps and the car was much more stable as you said in both a hard single turns and harder quicker slalom turns.

With high horsepower, I always need to make it clear to myself that my car grips great in corners and coming out of corners if I'm accelerating gradually out of a turn, but hitting it too hard will always result in a loss of rear control, especially in colder weather. You can't have it both ways. Either you lower the torque and don't have too be so cautious out of turns or while on a curve while boosting, or you side on caution. Erik
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Old 04-07-2012, 09:50 PM   #102
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It's a shame you can't just quote past responses. Can't believe someone is asking these questions again, with nearly ten pages on this thread and multiple responses to these same questions included therein. Enjoyed reading through this thread and I'm getting closer to plunking down the money for a new suspension setup on my 2012. I have had a couple of big rear end hops while out playing around in this car and I think it's time...before I wreck the damn thing.

Sam, I know you prefer phone contacts, but I'd like to throw my parts list at you via email, if you wouldn't mind having a look. Would that be kosher? No rush, I just bought some pricey bits for one of my bikes, so I won't be able to drop the cash for another week or two, at the earliest.
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Old 04-08-2012, 06:23 PM   #103
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Well, my apologies if my questions were a repeat. Admittedly gave it a quick skim, and didn't see the question I was looking for, but in any case, great follow up information by Whiskey, so thank you very much. Definitely will be getting a Watt's linkage (and FWIW, put the order in on the '13 GT track pack today). Thanks very much all.
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Old 02-05-2013, 03:34 PM   #104
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Sorry, but not really, for reviving this thread.

It's been almost another year later. Any new comments about which mounting type is better for a WL?

I see Sam now sells a rear diff mounted WL. I'm sure you have first hand experience with all three units you sell. Any consensus on which one is easiest to install, is the quietest, etc?

Any real evidence of failures with these three WL or of the Griggs units?

Thanks.
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Old 02-06-2013, 08:44 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by UrS4 View Post
Sorry, but not really, for reviving this thread.

It's been almost another year later. Any new comments about which mounting type is better for a WL?

I see Sam now sells a rear diff mounted WL. I'm sure you have first hand experience with all three units you sell. Any consensus on which one is easiest to install, is the quietest, etc?

Any real evidence of failures with these three WL or of the Griggs units?

Thanks.
Interesting design there. I like it. Says it fits all Mustangs... wondering if there's anything unique in terms of bolt pattern/size on the Torsen (track pack) diffs that would preclude its use for my car.

It does seem considerably "cleaner" in its design, and I'd be curious to hear how often (if at all) it needs to be checked/tightened. I find I need to get up under mine (Fays 2) and snug everything up every few thousand miles which is a bit of a chore, if I'm being honest.

Still not sure I want to go through the expense just to avoid that, but would love to hear from anyone who has experience with both units.
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Old 02-06-2013, 10:11 AM   #106
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My Techco Watts link is still working fine with pumpkin roll center design and bolt. Now after getting the Whiteline 4 point brace up front, the car corners with no roll whatsoever, but I think my bumpsteer needs to be re-seated, as it is too twitchy at higher speeds.

After adding adjustable caster/camber plates, I'd like to have a great suspension/roadrace shop test drive and re-adjust my whole suspension, a number of times, till it seems ideal for what it could be from their experience, now that I've put everything I want on the car for compliance and chassis stiffening. Erik
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Old 02-06-2013, 11:58 AM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UrS4 View Post
Sorry, but not really, for reviving this thread.

It's been almost another year later. Any new comments about which mounting type is better for a WL?
Geometrically I suspect that it depends on several things that might not be immediately apparent.

What do the rear RC and axle steer do as the rear suspension rises and falls under braking or throttle?

Do you want the rear portion of the elastic roll moment held relatively fixed and let the rear RCH "float" or fix the RCH and let the rear elastic roll moment be the thing that varies?

How stiff are the rear springs (how much RC and axle steer migration would we actually be looking at)?

Do the LCAs converge? If so, where - in front of or behind the axle (axle steer)?


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Old 02-06-2013, 01:08 PM   #108
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I still very much like the Fays2 and find it the best value, and proven . Well proven, lots of RC height adjustment.

If you want something like a Whiteline, fine. I'm frankly tired of the arguments over it. I have my preference, I know why (more than the value fwiw).
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Old 03-06-2013, 06:53 PM   #109
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A panhard bar(from the name of its suspension engineer that discovered it) induces rear steer, and the watts link doesnt . I once made a reverse watts link, but the arms were too short to work really well, but the car cornered better with the watts link than a panhard bar
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Old 03-07-2013, 12:32 PM   #110
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This has been a very informative thread
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Old 03-09-2013, 11:53 AM   #111
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To bad Ford can't seem to want to put a watts link and 285/40/18 sticky rubber all around on their track pack cars. Then the 1LE would be bested I'd hope. Erik
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Old 03-12-2013, 08:16 PM   #112
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I totally agree. After reading up on teh S197 chassis on other various sties and forums, I have now come to the conclusion that the S197 has so much more handling potential locked away in it. The only thing holding back the potential is the OEM's lack of performance. It seems like Ford went too much on avoiding NVH instead of adding more to the performance side.
After reading up on Watt's Link here and in other places, I have come to the conclusion that it is a superior option to PHB. Though it adds considerable more weight to the car than PHB, at least that weight addition is to the rear of the car. That helps being the center of mass back, for a slight increase in better weight distribution (however slight that weight re-distribution might be).
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Old 03-14-2013, 06:56 PM   #113
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Actually JiM, the Pumpkin roll center watts link designs such as my Techco and the Whiteline adjustable roll center design are lighter than fords heavy stamped pig iron bar and brace. When I held my stock bar and brace after originally having my Steeda Adj. Pan hard and brace put on, those things were heavy.

Even my Steeda set up was 8 pounds heavier than my Techco Watts link kit. Some sheet metal is removed also when you get rid of the Pan hard bar set up. Erik
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Old 03-15-2013, 07:23 AM   #114
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Anybody know how much of the weight of Ford's PHB is from the NVH shot that it is filled with?

At 1700+ lbs or so rear weight, an 8 lb difference between the two Watts link designs sounds like a wash to me. Short of playing at the pointy end of some competition class, anyway.

I doubt there's even that much difference in the contributions to unsprung mass. Might as well worry about where on the axle the weight differences actually show up if we're going to worry about a small difference in the total.

I'd make the choice whether to go with a chassis or diff mounted main pivot based on other criteria, for which there probably isn't a fixed answer for all situations.


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Old 03-15-2013, 09:39 AM   #115
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To bad Ford can't seem to want to put a watts link and 285/40/18 sticky rubber all around on their track pack cars. Then the 1LE would be bested I'd hope. Erik
stock springs and struts are soft and the brake dive and body roll with sticky rubber would be insane i would suspect. They need to make the stock struts superior and/or adjustable along with that change. I dont think it would have that much of an effect on the price of the car to put different struts in place of the stock.

ford could really easily improve on the track pack and not spend much $
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Old 03-18-2013, 01:28 AM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JIM5.0 View Post
I totally agree. After reading up on teh S197 chassis on other various sties and forums, I have now come to the conclusion that the S197 has so much more handling potential locked away in it. The only thing holding back the potential is the OEM's lack of performance. It seems like Ford went too much on avoiding NVH instead of adding more to the performance side.
After reading up on Watt's Link here and in other places, I have come to the conclusion that it is a superior option to PHB. Though it adds considerable more weight to the car than PHB, at least that weight addition is to the rear of the car. That helps being the center of mass back, for a slight increase in better weight distribution (however slight that weight re-distribution might be).
You are correct in that the S197 has SO MUCH handling potential. There are very basic common fixes that the community has done a great job of exposing already.

OEM engineers will always be concerned with increased NVH, it's almost taboo to develop a high NVH vehicle from the factory. That being said, we (Whiteline) do not believe performance should be sacrificed with NVH. You can have all the performance you need without suffering from noise, vibration, and harshness.

Our Synthetic Elastomer Bushings allow us to design features into the bushings to give you all the performance capabilities and maintain OE ride integrity. We've really tried to engineer a 90/10 formula of 90% of the optimal performance at the compromise of 10% decreased ride quality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Norm Peterson View Post
Anybody know how much of the weight of Ford's PHB is from the NVH shot that it is filled with?

At 1700+ lbs or so rear weight, an 8 lb difference between the two Watts link designs sounds like a wash to me. Short of playing at the pointy end of some competition class, anyway.

I doubt there's even that much difference in the contributions to unsprung mass. Might as well worry about where on the axle the weight differences actually show up if we're going to worry about a small difference in the total.

I'd make the choice whether to go with a chassis or diff mounted main pivot based on other criteria, for which there probably isn't a fixed answer for all situations.


Norm
Thank you! and agreed 100% Tuning is often times a big compromise between features and performance. We've made compromises to some parts to allow other features to be more prominent. Sometimes adding on weight (sprung or non-sprung) results in increased structural integrity, durability, or better engineering designs.
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Old 03-19-2013, 01:25 PM   #117
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Andy1386, Isn't the whole point that a "Track Pack" would imply that the driver would be willing to have a stiffer suspension and chassis, the improved springs, shocks, sway bars, adjustable caster/camber, Watts link and rear LCA's.? Plus wide properly off set wheels and 285/40/18's all around. Totally possible and doable by Ford.Not going to happen because it's Ford.
Mean while Chevy does exactly those things to the Camaro, and it works beautifully. Erik
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Old 03-19-2013, 01:25 PM
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